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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Deception, help..

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poet
Member



Joined: 2007/2/16
Posts: 231
Longview WA

 Deception, help..

My pastor and I have a disagreement going on...
could someone help me out on this one...

I believe that when someone practices Contemplative prayer, bringing their mind to an altered state of consciousness to hear in the spirit realm, which I believe to be the demonic realm, My pastor believes it is the Godly realm.....
He says as long as were believers God will protect us from deceiving spirits.
I believe that when we do something that the word of God forbids that there is no protection.
He doesn't think it's forbidden so it's not sin and were not subject to deception, I believe even if we do something in ignorance we can be deceived, unless we have been given grace to open our eyes to the deception and then repent....
What say anybody... Scriptures would help...
I want to try and convince him he's in error.
Unless im in error.... Let's not get into the whole stumbling block vain... which would obviously tip the scales in my favor.. but for a frontal attack against deception id like to confront this and settle it once and for all.
Thanks.


_________________
howard

 2009/8/8 19:50Profile
anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re: Deception, help..

I don't know the specific practices of you pastor in prayer. I will say though that there is nothing wrong with praying and meditating on God in intimacy with the Holy Spirit. Maybe there are false people who pray in the same way, but maybe there are also false religions that stand on a pulpit and preach. So should we then not preach is it satanic.

 2009/8/8 20:24Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: Deception, help..

Poet,


I do not know enough about this practice to respond to you about it but I wanted to encourage you that I believe you are right to insist on guarding ourselves from being open to deception. From what you described it sounds like it could be dangerous.


Some passages that came to mind are 1Timothy 4:1 and Col 2:18.



I have spoken with people before, one man in particular, that said he had been a Christian but the experiences that he was having were leading him to consider one of the Eastern religons.


I tried to share with him many passages also.


May God be your help always.




[i]edited to correct an error in grammar[/i]


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/8/8 23:45Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3384
Louisiana

 Re:

This is the definition of the word meditate as given in the Webster Dictionary (1828).

meditate
MED'ITATE, v.i. [L. meditor.]


1. To dwell on any thing in thought; to contemplate; to study; to turn or revolve any subject in the mind; appropriately but not exclusively used of pious contemplation, or a consideration of the great truths of religion.

His delight is in the law of the Lord, and in his law doth he meditate day and night. Ps.1.

2. To intend; to have in contemplation.

I meditate to pass the remainder of life in a state of undisturbed repose.
MED'ITATE, v.t. To plan by revolving in the mind; to contrive; to intend.


Some affirmed that I meditated a war.

1. To think on; to revolve in the mind.

Blessed is the man that doth meditate good
things.

There is a kind of meditation that Christians should participate in.

The wrong kind of meditation is to have a passive or blank mind which opens one up to the demonic realm.

Mike


_________________
Mike

 2009/8/9 8:50Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1971
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

I agree wholeheartedly with AbideinHim. This is not at all what is meant by Biblical meditation. I am not very familiar with this practice, so I did a quick internet search. Don't go to the sites that decry this practice as you already know what they are going to say. Instead, go to the Thomas Keating sites as well as the ones that espouse this practice, and follow the links wherever they take you. See for yourself who in this world agrees with and supports what is going on with this movement. That should be enough to tell you to avoid this thing categorically. Another scripture that may help you is Matthew 6:7. I understand this scripture in dealing in context with repeated prayers that are empty, spoken as rote and not from the heart, but I would say that this centering prayer qualifies as that at least. Hope that helps.


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Travis

 2009/8/9 9:24Profile









 Re: Deception, help..




Your absolutely right my brother; This is deception, of the most subtle kind. no one deceived believes that they are deceived. It is the nature of the fact. Of course your Pastor believes he isn't wrong, and he may never admit it. We hope he does , of course, and repent, but as innocent as "meditative prayer" may seem, it is never the less deadly, and the beginning of the road that leads to apostasy.


It has it's roots recently [ the last 1700 years ] in Catholic mysticism, which was rooted in Babylonian occultism for millenia preceding.


The issue is at it's roots WHERE we rest our Faith. We are commanded to pray to a Jesus who sits at the Right hand of the Father, making intercession for us to God. This is at the roots of Christian prayer, and thereby at the roots of Christian Faith.


No where, Not once in the Bible, are we commanded to pray inwardly; inside to the void. But you see, the water has been made murky, for the proponents of this practice, generally call it meditation, not prayer; Contemplative meditation. It is precisely, exactly the very same "prayerful meditation" that is practiced in the Hindu faith by the Yogi"s, for thousands and thousands of years.


In America it is called "Transcendental Meditation", and is practiced as a religion in yoga also; a methodology that clears the mind, focuses on a point within to enter the great passive void where god lives. It is here, that "experience" trumps doctrine; and the "bliss realms" of Heaven explode, along with visions, and transcending cosmic voyages occur.


Transcending means to travel, or transcend away from the Earth and Body experience. Often, as it is in Tibet today, and other Hindi-lands, objects are used. "Prayer" beads are issued to every Buddhist priest, as they are to the Western counterpart; Catholic Monasticism. Mantras are facilitated, which enable "Focus" to cleanse the mind of physical reality, and off you go.



This is why the Catholic mystics are so dangerous, and deceptive. They speak of Bliss [ Nirvana to the Eastern proselyte ], and of course Mary, and Jesus, but you must understand, this is not the same Jesus that we know, nor is it the same Heaven. It is contrived and methodological. It opens the mind and spirit to the demonic realm, and the theology of it has to be hammered into true Christian faith; which they so aptly do.


1] Meditating on a void, or object, is Idolatry. We meditate on God the Father and Jesus at his right Hand, and His WORD. Nothing else.


2] It is monastic in Nature, elite, and super-spiritual, which always breeds pride. we are called to Worship Him, in Spirit and in Truth, and it is accomplished by loving Him, and obeying Him, not the inward gaze of our own corruption. [ "The heart is exceedingly corrupt and wicked, "who can no it?". Meaning; it is a bottomless pit of depravity.


Recently there has been a flurry of activity in these realms. The demonic Todd Bentley, and Bob Jones, are avid proponents to these practices. Todd had chats with Paul the apostle, Abraham, and of course with Jesus himself, and journeyed often to Heaven. [ Paul lived in a simple hut there..] and Jones says, "Take my hand, and I'll take you to heaven." while rushes of vanilla clouds fill the room. I'm not kidding.



There are several older threads addressing this issue on Sermon Index....[ contemplative prayer.] One of the saddest instances to me, on a personal note, is IHOP's [Mike Bickle ] descent into these Roman Catholic practices, along with the rote monastic efforts of repetitive prayer and praise that has been championed at KC....just like the mystics of old. It is void of the Holy Spirit, and true glory to Jesus. It is deception.


It all began with the idea that the Roman mystics must have got it right, because of all of those incredible experiences that they had. Never let experience trump doctrine; that which is written in holy script, otherwise deception is crouching at your door, as with Cain. You can murder your brother in more ways than one.


I hope this helped..Tom


 2009/8/9 9:57
poet
Member



Joined: 2007/2/16
Posts: 231
Longview WA

 Re:

Great answers everyone, and thanks for the scripture helps..
I'll pray on this and see what happens next.


_________________
howard

 2009/8/9 10:38Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re: Deception, help..

Poet your are 100% correct Contemplative prayer is wrong you are not in error.

What you call Contemplative prayer is what the people in Toronto call prayer soaking. This is what the likes of Tod Bently, Bob Jones, Mike Bickle and many others are practicing this same prayer is what Roman Catholic mystics also pratice.

Mike Bickle promotes a book called "Sacred Pathways" which promotes the carrying of symbols or icons, choosing a mantra and visualizing God.

Soaking prayer involves a trance like meditative or contemplative state in which the adherent is encouraged to empty their mind. This type of prayer seeks to experience God’s presence through mystical exeperiences.

What's happening is the practices of the Roman Catholics are making in roads (like a flood)into the prodestant church because of the push for unity. False prophets leading the people into deception.

You will not in your own strength be able to convince you pastor that this is wrong as he is decieved, [b]strong prayer and fasting is the only way, do this and God will instruct you on what to do, or say.[/b]


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Colin Murray

 2009/8/9 13:23Profile









 Re: Deception, help..

I've heard there is a verse (maybe more) in the Bible, which states that a person who can be deceived, is a deceiver, but, I can't find it. Anyone recognise this, and know where it is?

Thanks!

(I need to know it for myself, but it may, also, help your cause, poet.)

 2009/8/9 13:34
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Tim 3:13

Is that the one your thinking about


[url=http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/keating.htm]For a Biblical umderstanding of Complemetive prayer go here [/url]


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Colin Murray

 2009/8/9 15:58Profile





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