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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Have you considered my servant - Job ???

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sonofthunder
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Joined: 2005/3/31
Posts: 419
Son Of Thunder i come from a land down under, due south at the bottom of your work globes

 Have you considered my servant - Job ???

The book of job has intrigued and puzzled both scholar and theologian alike for thousands of years ... and in fact i would dare to venture to say that only a minority of people (IMO) have truly figured out the riddle and the puzzle of his sufferings (correctly)! And have come to all the right conclusions over what exactly happened to Job during the course of all that anguish and that suffering...

I like you: Over the years have heard many theories, opinions, explanations, surmisings, and lessons over what allegedly occured between God, the devil and of course good ole Job in what is one of the most ancient - yet beloved books in all the bible !!

And in fact: Those who are going through some form of pain, difficulty, hardship, adversitity Ecet. Will often refer and resort back to the book of Job - seeking both comfort and solace.

( And frankly: Not A BAD IDEA ) If you ask me...

Years ago i use to teach on and off about Job and when i did the ( word-of-faith ) people and advocates always use to get big ears and roll there eyes and stand to attention! Reason being of course is the book of Job throws out (there own theology) on suffering! It does a number on them! Meaning this: They believe a christian who walks in absolute faith and obedience to God should not, and will not - suffer in life.

Simply put: God is love and he will not allow his children to suffer in life and this is the time of grace and all the promises in the word - promise us health, healing, and prosperity! Therefore a faith preacher cannot reconcile or balance the two things proportionately! and so therefore anything that threatens his or hers theology on this topic....they simply (pooh pooh) it and (blow it off) as gobble-de-gook and unbiblical nonsense.
( fullstop/period )

Yet the mystery of Job and all he endured is very much central to many things that befall the human race on a daily on-going basis! In fact trials and affliction is the way of the cross. If you follow in christ's steps peter said you will suffer! It's automatic! as we bear the reproach of the cross - then accordingly, we will suffer. In fact if we suffer with him - we shall also reign with him. This action is matched by God -- with a reward ( A Nice reward, in fact )

But lets start at the beginning: Did Job do anything wrong?? According to the first two chapters the man (Job) was faultless and blameless! With very high integrity: In fact such integrity that it caused satan to marvel - saying " I can't touch him - even if i wanted to, because you have walled him up and built a hedge of fire - about him "

In fact: God bragged on Job - to satan ...saying have you considered this one particular servant of mine? Have you looked at his life and his Godly fear and his perfectness of character??

( THERE IS NONE LIKE HIM IN ALL THE WORLD )

In a sense: God was proud of Job ( of course not sinful pride ) but nevertheless God was extremely pleased with Job's life and his character! Not only that but This character he possessed was the source and the reason for his incredible success and prosperity in life.


But like you: Ive heard people say that Job had to learn his lesson and after he was healed and restored -- and got his substance and possessions back ....then Job had - obviously learned his lesson. (interesting theology)

Truth is: God called satans attention to Job in the first instance declaring that he (Job) had "NO wrongs" But that he was a man that actually hated evil and eschewed it - totally! And He was an upright man! not a sinner!!!

Satan responded with the ultimate challenge to God, over JOb: Saying Let me touch him -- let me prove him, let me take away his blessings away from him...

So God agreed: And He let the hedge of protection come down and allowed satan to take away his substance, and his servants and his kids...

But Job retained his integrity even over this incredible stroke of "bad luck" and "mis-fortune" and rejoiced accordingly...

Hmmm. Back to the drawing board for satan: He then fires in a new protest to God and a new challenge over Job: Let me take away his health, let me smite him. Then he will surely curse you to your face! Lets just see if he maintains his integrity - and serves you for nought then???

(HE WILL HAVE NOTHING THEN, NOT EVEN HIS HEALTH)

The whole emphasis of satans challenge really (in essence) was: Will people serve God for nought?
What if there is no provision, no blessings, no material comforts and they have to go through life suffering - and with trial? or with some form of physical bondage? Will they still serve him - for nought?

Tis a fair question: Why am i in it? Do i seek mans honour? His praise! Or Do i love the prosperity and the things it brings me? Or the success? Or do i serve God for WHO he is? and because he made me, and i because i simlpy Love him??

IN my humble opinion: even though Job went to hell and back ( so to speak ) yet did he come through-it-all "with flying colours" whereas most other people would have surely cracked (yet Job didn't) His wife however seemingly apostasized saying doth thou still retain thy integrity? curse God and die, you miserable thing (my emp) ...but as James says -- Job actually endured, and held fast, even to the end

Saying: though he slay me yet will i trust him

And remember: Job had no idea or any inkling of the discussions that took place between God and satan - and the ensuing challenges that followed. He was totally proverbial speaking in the dark!!!

Just another reason why i think Job fared extremely well under the duress of it all, and under the circumstances he faced at the time. And all things considered and all things being equal (he Job) i think: came out the other end (trumps) totally thumbs up

But word-of-faith people: Foolishly believe and "hold to" the fact that Job opened up the gates of hell into his life! and his world resultingly - came crushing in on him!
IOW: He (Job) brought it all - on himself! But this dis-regards the pre-leminary talks between God AND SATAN -- in the first place. Totally!

From chapter three and onwards Job now suffers and begins to speak out to his three (comfort-less) friends and begins to wallow in some "self-pity" but how would we have coped....before we accuse or critice our friend JOB??? hmmm?

I will end the article there!!!

And see if others want to contribute anything further ....there is much more i could say further on the matter....but im keen to hear from some others also?!


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Bro Stephen

 2009/8/5 23:08Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re: Have you considered my servant - Job ???

Quote:
I like you: Over the years have heard many theories, opinions, explanations, surmisings, and lessons over what allegedly occured between God, the devil and of course good ole Job in what is one of the most ancient - yet beloved books in all the bible !!



Based on my limited observations, most christians dismiss vast parts of the book of Job because it does not conform to their systematic theology. The book of Job is a commentary on the whole of Scripture. It is similar to the book of Leviticus, in that these two books hold the interpretation of the rest of Scripture accountable. If one strays in their interpretation of Romans one will be corrected by these two books.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2009/8/6 7:14Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3686
Ca.

 Re:

Like Jesus, Job learned obedience by the things he suffered. Satan thought he had won at the Cross. Satan is just a tool in the hand of God, we all learn obedience by the things we suffer, Praise God, He is in control even when Satan is loosed against us and Job and Christ. Who gets the glory? Job, no; Christ, no; us no; God gets the Glory in all we suffer and are cleansed by, which is His perfect will for those in Christ, if we suffer with Him, we will glory also in His Glory, and what is that Glory? "Christ in you the hope of Glory". In Christ, In Christ, In Christ: Phillip

But most of all, Christ in you, by new birth.


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Phillip

 2009/8/6 21:33Profile
yoadam
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Joined: 2009/2/10
Posts: 97
OREGON

 Re:

Jeff: Job is by no means a "commentary on the whole of scripture"... Job was one of the first books composed, how could it be a commentary? :-(

Phillip: Christ does not get the glory??? :-(


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Adam

 2009/8/6 22:07Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3686
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 Re:

Did not God receive the Glory for what Christ has done. Did not Christs obedience give all the rewards of God The Father to His beloved Son? Now He is Glory Himself. "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."

Christ did not want glory, Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Philippians 2:7-9 But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Are we not heirs of God by this Christ that is in us? Our glory is in renewing our mind to the Mind of Christ that we might be obedient in Love and be exalted with Him. "son's of God in Christ Jesus the Incorruptable Seed of the Father by which we are born again. This is true Grace and mercy, for by this Grace we are saved through faith and that not of ourselves, to be exalted to sonship and Lambship by the Christ that is birthed in us. We are no longer servants but friends in loving our Oldest Brother and His Father, "Our Father". John 15:15-18 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, He may give it you. These things I command you, that ye love one another. If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you. We are not of this world, in it, but not of it. Ephesians 1:3-18 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, Ephesians 1:19-23 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

His Glory given Him by the Father, "the head over all things to the Church, which is His body, The fulness of Him that filleth all in all. We are the they that in all He filleth.

In Christ: Phillip

Romans 8:29-39 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Are called? Are we justified? Are we glorified? Are we more that conquerors? Nothing shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus Our Lord

He is us and us in Him and He in the Father and they make their abode with us and still we have the Holy Spirit Parakleet Teacher by whom we will forever learn Christ now in throughout all eternity, for the Father has also put The Holy Spirit and He will be in us forever.



In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2009/8/7 1:21Profile
sonofthunder
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Joined: 2005/3/31
Posts: 419
Son Of Thunder i come from a land down under, due south at the bottom of your work globes

 Re:

You know THE amazing thing and feature about our beloved friend and brother Job is in spite of ALL substance withdrawn and in spite of servants and livestock taken away FROM HIM, and in spite of children being lost. He Job waxes somewhat philosophical about it all and ALL the losses and says this " Naked came i out of my mothers womb and naked shall i return " in other words i came into the world with nothing and it looks like i shall depart OUT OF THE world with nothing!! ( james says ) "we brought nothing into the world and it is certain we can take nothing out" This was spoken and uttered after (JOB) had shaved his head and rent his mantle and fell upon the ground worshipping! He goes on to say further " The Lord gave and now he has taken away " but - blessed be the name of the Lord...anyhow

And friends and brethren at SI: What follows next is even more amazing and more startling (IMO) scripture goes on to say " that in all this Job sinned not with his mouth ... nor charged God foolishly ( wow )

I mean to say: To refrain from presumption, to keep a cool head, to care not over the loss of material goods and possessions ...and to not charge God or (spit the dummy) or (play the blame game) on Jobs part - is truly amazing in my opinion. It shows the calibre of the man! Why: He doesn't really know all the (hows or whys) of what is happening to him ( that is satans challenge to God at the start of the book) - but he just flat refuses however to blame God or for that matter and (more importantly) to walk out on his God - nor lapse into total rank unbelief. Left to his wifes advice however he may well have walked out on the Lord -- for she foolishly said TO her husband - AS WE KNOW "WHY DON'T YOU CURSE GOD JOB AND DIE, AND BE DONE WITH" DO YOU STILL HOLD YOUR INTEGRITY - AFTER ALL THIS LOSS AND TREAGEDY? Thats insane, she thought! But you know what? all lot of people dis-credit the book of Job either saying its all just poetry or OLD testament stuff (OLD testament) they say...IOW what is the relevance or point to it, to us today?


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Bro Stephen

 2009/8/7 6:12Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Quote:
I mean to say: To refrain from presumption, to keep a cool head, to care not over the loss of material goods and possessions ...and to not charge God or (spit the dummy) or (play the blame game) on Jobs part - is truly amazing in my opinion. It shows the calibre of the man!



To be more precise, Job's testimony is an example of God working in him perfecting this promise...

1John 2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

And the "love of God" enables one to realize this spiritual precept...

1John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

Job testifies of this kind of love...

Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;
26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
27 Whom I shall see for myself,
And my eyes shall behold, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

A heart that yearns for his Redeemer will overcome all that is in this world...

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2009/8/8 11:27Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Quote:
Jeff: Job is by no means a "commentary on the whole of scripture"... Job was one of the first books composed, how could it be a commentary?



Here is an example of the type of commentary that I have seen in the book of Job...

Many a sermon is preached on this precept found in Romans...

Rom. 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.


Yet does the preacher who preaches from a platform of 5 point Calvinism ever consider this Scripture...

Job 34: 24 He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry,
And sets others in their place.
25 Therefore He knows their works;
He overthrows them in the night,
And they are crushed.
26 He strikes them as wicked men
In the open sight of others,
27 Because they turned back from Him,
And would not consider any of His ways,

According to Scripture, God raises up men to rule. And if they refuse to obey Him, "He overthrows them in the night, and they are crushed."

1Cor. 3:18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”; 20 and again, “The LORD knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.”

1Cor. 1:26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

In the above Scripture we find that most who are mighty, noble, and wise are put to shame because they rely on they choose to rely in their flesh...

In Job 5 we find this precept illustrated....

8 “But as for me, I would seek God,
And to God I would commit my cause—
9 Who does great things, and unsearchable,
Marvelous things without number.
10 He gives rain on the earth,
And sends waters on the fields.
11 He sets on high those who are lowly,
And those who mourn are lifted to safety.
12 He frustrates the devices of the crafty,
So that their hands cannot carry out their plans.
13 He catches the wise in their own craftiness,
And the counsel of the cunning comes quickly upon them.
14 They meet with darkness in the daytime,
And grope at noontime as in the night.
15 But He saves the needy from the sword,
From the mouth of the mighty,
And from their hand.
16 So the poor have hope,
And injustice shuts her mouth.
17 “Behold, happy is the man whom God corrects;
Therefore do not despise the chastening of the Almighty.


For those who 'do not despise the chastening of the Almighty." will find...


5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
“My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

Heb. 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

A ruler who has not submitted himself to the chastening of the Lord will be overthrown in the night....

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2009/8/8 12:00Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3686
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"""To be more precise, Job's testimony is an example of God working in him perfecting this promise..."""

Amen and "God working in Him", lets not give Job any glory for none of us deserve the Grace Given by God. God is the only One that can receive Glory for Job, God already called him as servant, God would not tell Satan to look at God's servant Job unless God was sure Job would come through with flying colors, and not break under pressure, for God had already made him unbreakable, just like we are made unbreakable in Christ, Romans 8:31-39 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It was God that held up Job. It is Christ that holds us up.

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth?

God had already commended Job in His conversation with Satan, God surly made Job already justified before God allowed Satan access to Job. Who will fail if God is for them? Job knew it made no difference; he said, "he came into the world by Gods hand (with nothing) and he would leave by God's hand. (with nothing)" paraphrased: But Job in all his tribulation still learned even more obedience by the things he suffered. Praise God:

To God be the glory, who holds us all by His power;

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2009/8/8 21:10Profile
sonofthunder
Member



Joined: 2005/3/31
Posts: 419
Son Of Thunder i come from a land down under, due south at the bottom of your work globes

 Re:

Looks like the post has reached its end - and conclusion! I'd like to thank all who partook and contributed to the thread! and to them that showed interest in the discussions along the way...

Sincerely S.O.F

Thanks!!


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Bro Stephen

 2009/8/10 19:10Profile





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