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Discussion Forum : General Topics : It is impossible for a Christian to have a sinful nature

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 Re:

ok, twayneb,

If I may presume to go one step further and post what I think you would say:

1. Does God require men to be righteous or is it something that is impossible so we just say “I am righteous because of Jesus Christ?”

Yes, He requires us to be righteous (righteous behavior and conduct, manifested from a regenerated heart/spirit).

2. Is righteousness supposed to be an experiential reality in our lives?

Yes. Be ye holy AS I AM HOLY. Don't say you are holy cuz I am holy, but BE YE HOLY. Character, conduct, words manifest from the heart.

3. Is there such a thing as the transformation of righteousness in a believer?

Yes.

4. If Christ came to make men righteous, how does one experience righteousness as a work of the Spirit?

You did not cover this.

5. Will the glory of God abide among men if we just "declare we are righteous in Him" but have no real fruit?

I highly doubt it. John 15.

6. Should there be be some manifestation of the work of righteousness by the Spirit in a person?

Yes.

7. What is the reality of Christ in our lives?

Manifesting the character of Christ who lives in us.

 2013/12/13 15:47
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 562


 Re:

Romans 5:12-19 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:12-19&version=NKJV

These verses have been used to support the belief of a "sinful nature" inherited from Adam. What do you make of them?

How is the unregenerated flesh different from having a "sin nature"?

 2013/12/13 15:52Profile









 Re:

Ok, think carefully about what you just said. "Unregenerate flesh". There is no such Bible term or concept.

Only the spirit can be regenerated, flesh cannot be. Our flesh is just a house, temple carton, container. You are implying by your term that flesh can be regenerated, but it cannot. Thus, it cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Unregenerate men live for what the flesh lusts for. That is what flesh does, it lusts for food, water, comfort, and excesses (various types), until it becomes ruled by the Spirit. You have the same flesh the day after you were born again. Flesh is neither bad nor good. It depends if it is being ruled by an unregenerate spirit or regenerated spirit - otherwise known as the "new man" or "old man".

Believers yield the members of their flesh to righteousness by a regenerated spirit.

Satan has a sin nature which is a demonic nature. Do you think Satan took up residence in Adam and Eve and that is why they have a sin nature? Do you think Satan takes up residence in every baby born? Did he take up residence in Enoch? Because, if he did not take up residence in them and you maintain they had a sin nature apart from Satan's own sin nature, then they would be devils just like Satan, having in their possession their own demonic nature.

Does that concept exist in Scripture?

By and large today, the Christian understanding of man is terribly skewed and erroneous.



 2013/12/13 17:12
Sidewalk
Member



Joined: 2011/11/11
Posts: 719
San Diego

 Re:

Yuehan,

Methinks people too often read these verses with a preconceived theological reference, so that they are used to justify things they believe already. A proper reading would have a man learning from the words, so that one might better understand what God is actually doing here.

Without trying to assemble an exhaustive commentary here on my lunch break, I would just say that Paul was careful in his writing to craft his New Testament teaching on Old Testament truth. He was not, in his mind, writing a new bible, just expanding on the truth of the Scriptures he knew.

In verse 12, notice how at a crucial point it says that death spread to all men, not sin. They are not the same thing!

In verses 18 and 19, there is an element of voluntary participation that must not be overlooked. Otherwise, one might deduce that everyone becomes a sinner in Adam, and everyone is saved in Christ. Easy squeezy, nobody has to do anything!

Much more reasonable to me that as I participate like Adam in rebellion against God I receive the due condemnation, and as I participate in embracing Jesus Christ I receive the pardon and promise of the life He offers. In both cases it is about my choices coming up against God's holy law.

This seems to be perfectly clear to me in the verses you referenced, though at one time in my life and thought I did believe I had been born with a sinful nature that wasn't my fault.

I had accepted Christ, following the formula with which we are all familiar. But not until I saw my sin for what it really was and fell down in repentance did I experience the actual joy of being born again.

A joy, I might add, that has lasted about 5 decades... so far.


_________________
Tom Cameron

 2013/12/13 17:21Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Just-in. Righteousness is both a spiritual reality, I have been born again in my spirit (ref. John 3), and a positional reality, Good declares me righteous through His son. I know this may seem like I am splitting hairs, but when I say righteousness, I do not mean any kind of behaviors or actions at all. That being said, when I am righteous, I will manifest the fruits of righteousness which is a life of holiness. in other words, holiness is the fruit that is borne by the tree that has its roots in righteousness. Just as the tree receives its life through what the ground supplies to its roots, we can only receive life and beat fruit from the supply of the holy spirit.


_________________
Travis

 2013/12/13 19:27Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Who indwells the unbeliever, that is whose spirit has capacity over the flesh and sin? "You are of your father the devil". What did it take to assume the power of sin that dwells in us? Me! "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

So if the born again now have the spirit of Christ dwelling in them, who has the capacity over flesh and sin? So, what does it take to assume the power of God in Christ that dwells in, Me, because the power and help of Christ who now dwells in my spirit by direction and understanding of the Holy Spirit our Teacher of the Christ that dwells in us.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

So I am perfect in Christ and I also labour in Christ according to His working that worketh in me mightily.

If my flesh was perfect I would not have to die and put on the body just like Christ in the resurrection.

If my Spirit is perfect in Christ, by His Spirit that dwells in me, my spirit which is now the same as the Spirit of Christ will never die and the Holy Spirit will dwell with me forever and I will forever be learning God the Father, who Jesus Christ His Son and Who the Holy Spirit are as they are One and my all in all.

Why would God birth His Son in us? Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

AS Paul is so are we and as Christ is in this world so are we. Philippians 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

No one can overcome by His own strength and power, but only by the power of the birthing of the Son of God in me by the Father who has and is birthing me now.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

By Faith do we believe we are presented perfect in Christ Jesus our Lord and Life.

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Truly How are we justified? 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

If there be any glory in me, let it be all to God.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

By His good pleasure: In Christ, Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2013/12/13 20:18Profile









 Re:

Hi twayneb,

Yes, God declares us righteous in His Son.

Only those that exercise faith in Jesus Christ are God's children.

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:26

A good example is the thief on the cross. He was declared righteous, because of His faith.

Our spirit has now become joined to the Lord. 1 Cor 6:17

And we are enjoined to walk in Him, after the Spirit and no longer after the lusts of the flesh.

Our flesh has not changed, and is still earthly and corruptible.

Our choice each minute of everyday is to sow to the flesh or sow to the Spirit.

But we have His life in us now, which is able to overcome all the power of the enemy, and greater is He that is within you than he that is within the world. We have this treasure in earthen vessels, yet our worst enemy is ourselves if WE choose to sow to the flesh. We can't be blame shifters like Adam and Eve were.

Jesus and the Apostles command us almost at every turn to seek things above and not below, sow to the spirit and not the flesh, because those who sow to the flesh will be destroyed.

 2013/12/14 9:01





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