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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Presumption

Quote:
... as well as complete healing from a broken foot one day after the fact], let's just say, "I believe in the power of prayer to heal miraculously".

I should add, I horribly injured my foot again this winter and refused to go to the doctor, but trusted in prayer alone. I and the Church prayed for healing but it didn't occur…yet.



Might want to get that x-rayed, doesn't sound like that foot got all that well healed the first time there brother. Generally, if you break a bone and it is reset correctly it will actually become [i]stronger[/i]. And, I might add, what will happen to your family in the event your canceled health coverage and presumption upon God's will if it one day leaves you disabled or an invalid and a burden upon your family?

This is really the gist of the whole situation, including the sad, heart breaking situation now with this family. Reading the article my first instinct was something along the lines of '[i]and where did he assimilate this idea in the first place?[/i]' regarding;

"Neumann, who once studied to be a Pentecostal minister, testified Thursday that he believed God would heal his daughter and he never expected her to die. God promises in the Bible to heal, he said.

"If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God," Neumann testified. "I am not believing what he said he would do."


There is no end to these shenanigans and the [i]teaching[/i] that runs along the lines of [i]'It's always Gods will to heal'[/i]. There is no promise anywhere explicitly that is not tortured away from the whole of scripture and that cannot be at a minimum dismissed as contradictory by Paul's admonishen to Timothy in
1Ti 5:23 as one example.

The word is presumption. Another example given to the Benny Hinn's of the world that will go by the wayside or be put down as a lack of faith article so they can continue to sell their wares and their [i]version[/i] of interpretation, the verse;

[i]Jesus answered, "Do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?"[/i] Joh 18:34

Comes to mind. That is, did this man come to his own conclusions or was it aped by '[i] others say it to you about me?[/i] If he was studying to be a Pentecostal minister as stated the possibility seems strong enough even though that may be a presumption on my part. It's a clever twist on their part to not have faith in [u]their version of faith[/u], not faith in God which need not presume upon Him.


[i] But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. [/i] 1Ti 5:8

All that the word [i]provide[/i] obligates us to and even to overlook the context in wonder of what made these women widows in the first place, especially if;

[i]Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.[/i] 1Ti 5:5

Certainly this is not to suggest there was no trusting God prior and yet for all this, how is it that this gets thrown to the dogs;

[b]he hath denied the faith[/b]


Not a [i]lack[/i] of faith but faith [i]denied[/i], it's actually a violation of faith. I didn't intend to start down this road and draw out verses to dispute or haggle over the nuances of them - This is one area where we have covered miles of ground in the past and I for one would like to see some accountability form these so called 'teachers' who put these notions in peoples heads in the first place. The long redundant rant has been that there are serious [b]ramifications[/b] from this nonsense, that which I was at one time even slightly caught up in with the whole WOF camp though it doesn't end with them either, the JW's teach similarly and the alterations and variations are numerous. As far as I am concerned these people are accessories to this tragedy and to many that have come before it and will continue to come long after it.

25 years for ignorance ... I can only shake my head and grieve, too bad there isn't more said as to where he got all this in the first place - Maybe he did derive it all on his own. But hold this tragic example as fire to the feet of the so called "Faith healers" and dealers of this hour and they will only seek to worm their way out of it. They don't care one iota about the fallout, ruined lives and unnecessary suffering of their hearers and 'believers'. There should be justice even in this present world by the 'word-lings' - What else is this admonishen for;

[i]Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.[/i] Heb 13:17

Even Jesus would not offend them nor disobey the 'worldly' powers that be. The pseudo, puppet gov. of the Jews and the Sanhedrin being something else entirely. And Paul as a [u]Roman[/u] citizen sought justice with the same powers that be. This is where Deep Thinker is dead on in his assessment, I concur whole heartedly.

Robby;

Quote:
Know that in many areas of my city you are no longer allowed to voice those convictions as you are a Christian. We have religion free zones [UW, the capital square, our many abortion clinics…] to protect the people from the intolerant hatred and bigoted homophobic onslaughts of hurtful divisive Christians.

So thank God for forums such as this! However I think we have begun to bifurcate in our discussion…

My original query being how do we feel about being thrown in jail [silenced] for bearing our convictions as Christians, in this case, miraculous healings [or lack of] of which I am a delighted recipient. I really didn't know the exact specifics as I mentioned.

25 years? My God! That is just to teach us to stay in our place. This severity of sentencing wouldn't happen in the GLBT community I am sure. The Moslem community? I don’t know, thus my query.

I would once again concur with HeartSong and add:

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.



I respect what you have stated here in regards to the misconstrued notions of Christian convictions but feel this is a mixing of wrong metaphors so to speak. We shouldn't craft a complex that makes us 'martyrs' due to our own stupidity or breaking the laws of the land. Using Joshua 24:15 as a defense is akin to abusing it against;

[i]God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. [/i] Joh 4:24

And the truth is no healing is promised upon presumption and serving the Lord has nothing to do with believing someones else misguided version, 'conviction' of faith or faith healing. Even one's own.* This and others like it is too often used as a scapegoat for good old fashioned common sense. How many times must we hear a defensive posture taken for that which we are responsible for? "[i]I am serving the Lord[/i]" - Are you? Truly? Or are you serving your self ultimately, back-peddling and dismissing your obligation and pining it on the Lord? (I am using the word 'you' in a generative manner).


*[i]Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, [u]rightly dividing[/u] the word of truth.[/i] 2Ti 2:15



_________________
Mike Balog

 2009/8/2 10:42Profile
robbyk
Member



Joined: 2009/6/16
Posts: 32
Madison, WI

 Re:

Many words of wisdom which I was intent on searching out at this forum as I have been steeped in my own discernment [or lack thereof] o'er the past many months. Thanks!!!

Quote:
Might want to get that x-rayed, doesn't sound like that foot got all that well healed the first time there brother. Generally, if you break a bone and it is reset correctly it will actually become stronger.



I should add I refused to go to the doctor upon the injury, whatever that was [I was cutting down trees hung up in others] but at the behest of my church I consented to go in for a foot x-ray at a later date.

Here's the rub:

2 years ago I broke my foot, went into emergency at midnight, had x-rays, shown the break on the side of the foot and told to wear a leg "boot" for 6 - 8 weeks. The next day I couldn't walk out of bed and my wife made an appt with the specialist to get a boot.

The next day, I woke up and was heavily preoccupied with a free concert with my band that evening for a local large food pantry. 3-4 hours after bible study and morning devotionals, I was fixing my oatmeal and I realized I WAS WALKING!

I testified that evening to all the recipients of the meal to the Glory of God my foot had been healed and even stomped out an exaggerated beat to the music [I am part of a large prayer chain which had been actively praying for my foot]!

Well this year just before Easter, I was cutting down dead elms on a slippery hillside out back and I somehow injured my foot [another post someday as I had been prepared by the Lord for an injury in my morning prayers]. By evening I couldn't walk but taped up my toes, put an ace bandage on the foot, wore the boot from the previous year which I never needed [all just as the doctor would have done] and my foot slowly improved...but...all these months later I still cannot walk well [but I am walking] so I went in for the x-ray. I also think I have stretched out my Achilles tendon which has slowed the healing.

There is NO evidence of break!

Not even evidence of the certified break from the previous year. All is healed without any evidence of having ever been broken.

So what to do now? The doctors want to do an estimated $10,000 of tests up to an including MRI's etc. They suspect all kinds of stuff. Too bad.

No can do. Besides doctors are largely drug pushers and that is how they diagnose. I don’t “do” that very well and I don’t have time to be a guinea pig.

The Lord continues to lead. On August 12th I am heading out to discuss missions work with the Lakota Sioux nation in SD. If I can't walk, then so be it. When I come back I will be discussing the same with the Ojibwa up north.

Time to be about my Father’s business.

All prayers are appreciated and thanks in advance.


_________________
Robby Kjonaas

 2009/8/3 0:08Profile
robbyk
Member



Joined: 2009/6/16
Posts: 32
Madison, WI

 Re:

GLORY TO GOD!

This morning in our Fellowship, our wonderful sister Kim who has had increasing health problems over the past many months [she is under doctor supervision] and finally was diagnosed with breast cancer announced today the doctors can NO LONGER find the cancer and ALL plans for her surgery have been cancelled! She has been trusting for her healing and our Pastor and Fellowship has been laying hands on her.

Quote:
The world is not going to understand a believer that trust in the Lord for their healing and doesn't believe in going to doctors. I have known of many people that have been healed yet I never saw it on the front page of the newspaper.



Yes! We call it a healing!

I just want to add I am very thankful for all the above discussion in this thread. As I say I have been somewhat obsessed with this having been and then not been a recipient of healing in my life...

Today as the Lord would have it, my pastor touched off an incredible sermon tying together much of what has been eluded to above…the evil in this city, the strength of the church, healing, prayer… His sermon from Acts was magnificent!

I have decided to post his sermon on my youtube site in it’s entirety [I have been posting excerpts for many months]. It should be up in a day or two if anyone is interested!

God bless you all, He is good all the time!


_________________
Robby Kjonaas

 2009/8/3 0:33Profile
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 640


 Re:

What he did seemed very foolish, but I really don't know this man_ how he really walks before God and before his neighbors, if he is really that foul and offensive or is simply suffering from 'obsessive-compulsive disorder'.

This is very painful, but lot of believers more especially in the pentecostal groups seem to suffer from this malady as the secular world will describe it. From my experience, these individuals maybe are misguided, but they are sincere and kind.

I once asked myself about their eternal condition being very bothered from what I saw.

Well, what is impressed upon me is that we are saved by grace alone, at times we also suffer form 'obsessive compulsive behavior', that God remembers them whose trust is in Him although they don't received the answer to their prayers and faith in this present life:

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth" (Heb 11:13)

I am also rather humbled on how they suffer for their beliefs even for its foolishness and I came to examine myself on how am I really willing to be a fool for God, to forsake the wisdom of this world and follow Christ.

I am rather overwhelmed by pity to that man at the moment, I know God does not overlook a sincere faith, and that God is sovereign and loves that girl more than than I can imagine:

Luk 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?

Luk 12:7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

 2009/8/3 1:33Profile
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:




Quote:
Mike: “Comes to mind. That is, did this man come to his own conclusions or was it aped by ' others say it to you about me? If he was studying to be a Pentecostal minister as stated the possibility seems strong enough even though that may be a presumption on my part. It's a clever twist on their part to not have faith in their version of faith, not faith in God which need not presume upon Him.”



Quote:
Passerby: “What he did seemed very foolish, but I really don't know this man_ how he really walks before God and before his neighbors, if he is really that foul and offensive or is simply suffering from 'obsessive-compulsive disorder'.”



Procter and Gambelites thread comes to mind here… do we know all the facts?

Are we so quick to jump to the world’s judgment regarding this man who may or may not be as “ignorant” or filled with “stupidity” as the world has judged him in a climate as our brother who introduced the subject described, where the government seems (notice I said seems from his quote) to be rather demonic.

Not at all taking up for presumption substituted for faith. I have made my comments many times on the forums against such "faith" and the fact that it requires much more faith to be a Job or a Paul in prison, or an Amy Carmichael suffering till the death than what is called faith for healing... those heroes as a friend recently pointed out in Hebrews 11 "not accepting deliverance"... such as the many martyrs and sufferers world wide for the name of Christ... but then that begs the question about "authorities" also. China, North Korea, the Muslim nations, and etc. are filled with Christians imprisoned for "breaking the law".

Just trying to look at something other than a one sided picture... and looking at who painted the one we have information from.

Other food for thought are the remarks at the Q & A last year regarding the days coming when Christians in the U.S. [url=http://media.sermonindex.net/17/SID17658.mp3]here[/url] will be arrested and charged with all kinds of crimes in order to smear not only them but Christians in general.

Another quote comes to mind and that from the Lord Himself Matthew 5:21-22 ( NASB )
“You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’
“But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Respectfully submitted for thought.

Clint


_________________
Clint Thornton

 2009/8/3 6:49Profile
robbyk
Member



Joined: 2009/6/16
Posts: 32
Madison, WI

 Re:

The previous couple of comments [not mine] are so intensely beautiful, well thought out and scriptural that I am overwhelmed with the strength, devotion and maturity of this community. It give me much food and encouragement in my daily walk, a mentor as it were and courage.


_________________
Robby Kjonaas

 2009/8/3 14:10Profile
sonofthunder
Member



Joined: 2005/3/31
Posts: 419
Son Of Thunder i come from a land down under, due south at the bottom of your work globes

 Re:

Let me add also, there have been not a FEW radical groups that have come and gone - and in particular in the great ole (USA)! That HAVE refused any kind of medical treatment for ailments and serious afflictions ... thinking OF COURSE THAT this is contrary to the (faith and divine healing message) !!! The ensuing result of course is many have died of ailments which in MANY instances could have been easily fixed by the hands and treatment of medical science. But the recipients of such a message continued to refuse any kind of medical treatment (in spite of how bad the situation got, deteriorated, or how things worsened) as this was construed and seen (as compromise) to their absolute message of total faith! (full stop)

Of course over an extensive period of time (what happens is) the death toll of people in these radical groups continues to climb and escalate upon them that have allayed or joined themselves to such a group. Until of course the authorities step in (and/or laws) are changed to close the loopholes to irresponsibility and sheer lack of common sense!!!

Usually by then however: The death toll in these radical groups has risen to dozens and dozens of needless and unecessary premature deaths! Yeah even hundreds of people! As parents and adults alike - continue to refuse any kind of medical treatment whatsoever ... and again they behave in this fashion: Because this is seen as a contradiction to walking by faith!!!

Interesting thought though: Jesus never chided or scalded the woman with (the issue of blood) that had been constantly seeking relief from her ailment> However when divine supernatural healing occurs ... or takes place in the bible (98.9%) of the time - it was instantaneously (being instant) and there was none of this none this walking it out business ( that faith people ) talk about?! Hmmm.

Even the ten lepors "still recieved" as they walked! they weren't made to wait ten hours, or ten days, or even ten months .... for the manifestation of their healing - to come.

I don't follow (word of faith) modern faith preachers for these self same reasons i bring to you now. Paul said it well i think: You will suffer if a man - bring you into bondage: !!!!!

There is a lot of deception and winds of doctrine out there -- so be careful, beloved!


_________________
Bro Stephen

 2009/8/3 19:25Profile
sonofthunder
Member



Joined: 2005/3/31
Posts: 419
Son Of Thunder i come from a land down under, due south at the bottom of your work globes

 Re:

Oh by the way - stay tuned, as God willing the (12) most debated topics in all the bible ... is a post i am currently working on. Which God willing i hope to deliver to you all - one day, soon!! hopefully!


_________________
Bro Stephen

 2009/8/3 19:41Profile









 Re:

Quote:
This is very painful, but lot of believers more especially in the pentecostal groups seem to suffer from this malady as the secular world will describe it. From my experience, these individuals maybe are misguided, but they are sincere and kind.

Having a Pentecostal background, I concur with your analysis. It's the extreme legalism in certain off shoots of the Pentecostal movement that adhere to a strict moral code which includes not going to the General Practitioner. The word of faith is another extreme off shoot as well. It's generally the person who is the Pastor of these flocks that gets messed up, not every Pastor adheres to these stupid rules, others will actually have a good and wholesome balance. But we are going to find that in all denominations, not every Pastor has been called to be a Pastor.

 2009/8/3 21:34
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3156


 Re:

For what it is worth, the Lord has gotten me to a place that I do not intend to seek medical help unless He leads me to it.

Recently He has seen fit to allow me to have a severe rash on my face. It looks really bad and has been a huge blow to my ego. I asked the Lord to take it away, but His response was that His grace was sufficient. In addition to the rash, He has required that I be seen by many people - whereas I would typically hide away in a situation such as this.

I have never had such a disfiguring thing happen to me. There are blotchy red spots covering most of my face. They are puffy and scabby and very ugly - one of my eyes was even half closed when I woke up this morning. When people ask me what it is I tell them that the Lord is dealing with some vanity issues. Yesterday in church a lady asked me if it hurt and I told her "no, just my pride." People have been avoiding me, and little children have been pointing at me. I must say that my empathy level for disfigured people has risen significantly.

Several people have told me I should see a doctor, but as far as I can see, for the most part, people are not actually healed of their illnesses by doctors. Additionally the Lord has shown me that my choices dictate where my help comes from - and I choose Him. If, and when, He chooses to heal me I know that my healing will not only be complete, but that there will be many blessings connected to it.

I have asked the Lord not to heal me until the vanity issue is resolved. I would rather have a red blotchy face than a dark heart and if I die from it I will have gained everything, for I will then have all of Him.

 2009/8/4 0:39Profile





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