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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : God & Time

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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 God & Time

Time = mesurement of sequence of events.

To [b]do[/b] any thing is partaking in time.
God can not be out side of time because God does things.
Since God does things, He is in time; His own time anyway.

God is in His own sphere of time. For example:
If God stopped the universe completly, with no atomic movement, no sequnce of events at all; and He does this for 5 years of His time, then starts it back up, we would not percieve any delay of time, even though it was stoped for 5 years.
Because God did something with events, stopping and starting the universe, it proves that God is in time, even though it is not our time.

God can not literally [b]see[/b] the future because it does not exist; to see anything is a phisical thing to do. If God actally saw the future, that would mean the future actually exists.
However, God may know the future by wisdom & understanding of how the sequence of events will turn out. God knows everything so very well that He can comprehend the cause and effects of everything, even of thoughts of men.
Therefore, God knows even our future thoughts.

 2009/7/29 10:26Profile
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re: God & Time

Quote:
However, God may know the future by wisdom & understanding of how the sequence of events will turn out. God knows everything so very well that He can comprehend the cause and effects of everything, even of thoughts of men. Therefore, God knows even our future thoughts.




This verse from Isaiah sheds some light as well as to why God can know the future...

Is 46:8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10[b]Declaring the end from the beginning[/b] , and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, [b]My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:[/b]
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: [b]I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.[/b]

 2009/7/29 11:50Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re: God & Time

Ah, no.

Got scripture?


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Christiaan

 2009/7/29 15:06Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3653
Ca.

 Re:

Because earthly and finite man cannot fathom the eternity past and eternity future, which God is in complete control of, man must put time limits on God. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal this eternity, past and future to the believer. God is not outside of Time, He is the totality of all that time is. Eternal in past, present and future. He is God. Ephesians gives a pure picture of what God did before a starting point for us to understand, which the foundation of the World as shown us by The Word of God, which is eternal, already showing there are no limits of Time on God.

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Ephesians 1

The doxology (verse 3) marks the beginning of the epistle. When we reach the end of this first section we find another doxology (3:20-21). Between these two doxologies are found the unsearchable riches of God's grace in Christ. The third verse is in itself the key to the great and deep revelation which follows in this chapter. It is the bud which the Holy Spirit gradually unfolds. The Godhead in blessing believers is revealed in the doxology. First we find the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. He is the author of all blessings. In the second place we learn that the blessings are in the Son of God, in Christ. Then thirdly, we read what kind of blessings we receive in Christ, "every spiritual blessing," that is, blessings communicated by the third person of the Godhead, God the Holy Spirit.

The phrase "in the heavenly places" (or heavenlies) is peculiar to this Epistle. We find it five times: chapters 1:3, 20; 2:6; 3:10 and 6:12. It means both the nature of the blessings which we have in a risen and glorified Christ, and the locality, where our Lord is in glory. The three persons of the Godhead are mentioned in the third verse. The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has blessed us; these blessings are in the Son and are communicated by the Holy Spirit. What follows is very interesting. In verses 4-14 we have the three persons of the Godhead revealed and their work in the redemption of sinners. Read verses 6, 12 and 14. Each is an utterance of praise--"to the praise of the glory of His grace" (verse 6); "that we should be to the praise of His glory" (verse 12); "unto the praise of His glory" (verse 14). Each of these verses marks the close of what is said about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. In verses 4-6 we read what the Father has done; verses 7-12 reveal what we have and are in the Son, in Christ; verses 13-14 reveal the work of God, the Holy Spirit.

Three great facts are mentioned of the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1. He hath chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world.
2. He hath predestinated us unto the Son-place in Christ.
3. He hath made us accepted in the Beloved.
What wonderful statements these are! We are in them face to face with the deepest revelation. To deny this would stamp these words as the imaginations of a deceiver. Only revelation can make known that which happened before the foundation of the world. Whatever is in God's eternity, that unfathomable existence without beginning, is beyond man's ability to grasp and therefore unrevealed. But here the great truth is made known that God, before there was a world, planned His masterwork. With Him in His bosom was His blessed Son, the Son of His love. In Him, by Him and for Him all things were called into existence. Yet before this creation was effected, God knew the outcome. Surprise is an impossibility with God. He knows the end from the beginning. The whole story of man's fall and its results were not hidden from Him. And before it ever came to pass God made provision. And those who would accept Christ, as their Savior, He willed should be before Him holy and without blame, become partakers of His own divine nature. This God willed before the foundation of the world, and this is now, through grace, the portion of every believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. And, furthermore, He predestinated all who believe in Christ to the Son-place.

A brief word on "predestination." This word, which means "marked out" is nowhere found in connection with the Gospel, nor does it say anywhere in the Word, what some have said, that God has predestinated human beings to be lost. But while we do not read that He ever predestinated any one to be lost we read "God would have all men to be saved" (1Ti 2:4). God has nothing to say to a lost world about predestination. His grace, bringing salvation has appeared unto all men. God's offer of salvation is therefore to all.

The Authorized Version speaks of "adoption of children." This hardly expresses it correctly. Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ are not adopted into the family of God; they are born into the family. The Greek has only one word "Son-place." We are placed into the position of Sons. Not alone hath God given to us His own nature, but He gives us, because we have that nature in and through His Son, the place as Sons. Think of what God might have done for those, who by wicked works are His enemies. He might have given us the place of unfallen angels, the wonderful ministers of heaven. What mercy that would have been! Or He might have lifted us to the dignity of an archangel, full of beauty and power. But even that would not have been the very best He could have done in the riches of His grace and love. He has made us Sons, like the Son, whom He raised from the dead and seated at His own right hand.

And then He hath accepted us in the Beloved One. All this God planned and willed before the foundation of the world. The Beloved One having been mentioned, we read at once of His work. Three facts are given of the work of the Son of God:

1. He redeemed us by His blood.
2. In Him we received the revelation of the mystery of His will.
3. In Him we obtain an inheritance (verses 7-12).
He came from the bosom of the Father to this earth to redeem us, so that God's eternal will might be accomplished. Redemption, the taking out of the condition in which we are by nature, is a necessity, and has been accomplished by the blood of the Son of God, which was shed on the cross. He paid the price and has set us free. The riches of His grace by the redemption through His blood includes all our needs as sinners; the forgiveness of sins, mentioned here, is, so to speak, the foundation.

"Whosoever will" and "whosoever believeth" are the glorious terms of God's good news to all alike. But when we believe, we know that we are chosen and predestinated. Those who have believed on Christ are predestinated and they possess the Son-place. Then having believed, we know that we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. end;


All this before the foundation of the world. A time that man cannot comprehend without the Holy Spirit of Revelation in who God is was and always will be.

WE are the "those whosoever will", and those whosoever believe, because before Time as we know it God already made provision for the fall and redemption of all those who are chosen in Christ.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2009/7/29 23:26Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Good post brother. Well thought out and way better then I could articulate.

Time. God is not constrained by it, nor answers to its (time) "timeline". I do not pretend to understand how God is outside of time, but I am not going to try to rationalize how man views time, and try to fit God into that box.


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Christiaan

 2009/7/29 23:38Profile
hulsey
Moderator



Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 640
Missouri

 Re: God & Time

Actually, it's not logical to say that God's actions must be measured by time because all of our actions or even all the ones that we can observe are measured by such. That's like a 2D creature denying the possibilities of a 3D world because they are unable to observe it. I'm not sure what the official name of the logical flaw in this argument is, but it boils down to the denial of a third alternative.


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SI Moderator - Jeremy Hulsey

 2009/7/29 23:56Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1884


 Re: God & Time

God has revealed to us in Genesis chapter 1 the good that He created.

In verses 4,10,12,18,21,and 25 in the 1st chapter of God's Book of Beginnings,Genesis, God states after the creation of certain things on a certain day,"And God saw that it was good."

In creating nor in stating these things is God learning nor discovering such to be good but rather they are so by God's decree.

In the final verse(31) of this 1st chapter of Genesis God pronounces 'everything' to be 'very good' that 'He had made'.

In,during,or after the making of these things God's knowledge did not increase. Nor was His knowledge in any wise diminutive prior to any of these created things mentioned. The reason for this is that God in His being is immutable. All God's attributes,both communicable and incommunicable, are immutable.

This truth is significant as we would delve into the knowledge and/or foreknowledge of God as they are inseperable.

Any foreknowledge God has originates in His immutable character and His attribute of immutable knowledge.

Such truth is pertinent to refute such erroneous statements of the nature of foreknowlege proposed by men who would make the Word of God to suit their own theological conclusions or rather delusions.

Two such statements by two men who held to and taught such erroneous views of the nature of foreknowledge should suffice.

"From this follows the fourth decree to save certain particular persons and to damn others, which decree rests upon the foreknowledge of God, but which he has known from eternity which persons should believe according to such an administration of the means serving to repentance and faith through his preceding grace and which should persevere through subsequent grace, and also who should not believe and persevere." (James Arminius)

"We must not think they are because he knows them. No; he knows them because they are. Just as I (if one may be allowed to compare the things of men with the deep things of God) now know the sun shines: Yet the sun does not shine because I know it, but I know it because it shines. My knowledge supposes the sun to shine; but does not in anywise cause it. In like manner, God knows that man sins; for he knows all things: Yet we do not sin because he knows it, but he knows it because we sin; and his knowledge supposes our sin, but does not in anywise cause it. In a word, God, looking on all ages, from the creation to the consummation, as a moment, and seeing at once whatever is in the hearts of all the children of men, knows everyone that does or does not believe, in every age or nation. Yet what he knows, whether faith or unbelief, is in nowise caused by his knowledge. Men are as free in believing or not believing as if he did not know it at all." (John Wesley)

GOD DOES NOT CHANGE

For I the LORD do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed (Mal. 3:6).

But he is unchangeable, and who can turn him back? What he desires, that he does. For he will complete what he appoints for me, and many such things are in his mind. Therefore I am terrified at his presence; when I consider, I am in dread of him (Job 23:13-15).

The revelation of such Truth of God's Being incites terror,dread and reverential fear of God.

Men are given to change

"My son, fear Jehovah and the king; do not meddle with those who change (Prov. 24:21). The Hebrew word sha^na^h is translated change both here and in Mal. 3:6.

God's knowledge cannot be added to, as to do so necessitates change.

RE: Time and the time element

God is eternal and continuously inhabits eternity.

For thus said the high and exalted One, Inhabiting eternity, and holy is His name: `In the high and holy place I dwell, And with the bruised and humble of spirit, To revive the spirit of the humble, And to revive the heart of bruised ones (Isa. 57:15).

The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms. And he thrust out the enemy before you and said, Destroy(Deut. 33:27).

To think of God otherwise will only prove that one has created a god in their own image leading to thoughts such as the following:

"Obviously God must know all things that can be known and know them truly. To be able to know all that can be known is a dimension of God's power….omniscience need not mean exhaustive foreknowledge of all future events. If that were its meaning, the future would be fixed and determined, much as is the past. Total knowledge of the future would imply a fixity of events. Nothing in the future would need to be decided. It also would imply that human freedom is an illusion, that we make no difference and are not responsible. It would seriously undermine the reality of our decisions if they were known in advance, spelled out in a heavenly register and absolutely certain to happen. It would make the future fixed and certain and render illusory the sense of our making choices between real options…This implies that God learns things…If this matter of God's learning surprises anyone, be reminded that simple foreknowledge also implies that God learns from what creatures do. I am not speaking in a temporal sense now but in the sense that part of what God knows depends on what creatures do." (Clark Pinnock)

The above is known as the false doctrine of "Open Theism".

As the term "open" implies, according to these false teachers the future has not yet been fully decided, as God nor any other completely knows future events as it 'depends on what creatures do'.

These false teachers make the Eternal God to be in and/or subject to time.

To these God says,

"Remember this and stand firm, recall it to mind, you transgressors, remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it (Isa. 46:8-11).

"all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?" (Dan. 4:35)

May we all hear God and His Truth as He reveals in His Word,

"(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations) before him whom he believed, even God, who reviveth the dead, and calleth those things which are not, as though they were" (Rom 4:17).

"Then the LORD said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?(Ex. 4:11)

"I am Jehovah, and there is none else; there is no God beside me: I girded thee, and thou hast not known me; that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the going down, that there is none beside me. I am Jehovah, and there is none else; forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness; let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and with it let righteousness spring up. I, Jehovah, have created it.Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let a potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that formeth it, What makest thou? Or thy work, He hath no hands? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? Or to his mother, What hast thou brought forth? Thus saith Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: Ask me of the things to come; concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands, command ye me. It is I that have made the earth, and created man upon it; it is I, my hands, that have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. It is I that have raised him up in righteousness, and I will make all his ways straight: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith Jehovah of hosts...Declare ye, and bring near, Yea, they take counsel together, Who hath proclaimed this from of old? From that time hath declared it? Is it not I--Jehovah? And there is no other god besides Me, A God righteous and saving, there is none save Me"(Isa.45:5-13,21).

Worship God

 2009/7/30 2:17Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Ya'll are missing the point.
Time is a messurment of the sequence of events and duration.

Any action is an event which has duration, therefore, even God has time; even though it may be seperate from ours.

He is not "bound" by time, even his own. However, God is in time; you can't deny this, unless you have a different definition of time.

If you say that God does not even have His own time, then you must know that He can not DO anything, since "doing" requires an event & a duration of that event, which is mesurable.

Quote:
Actually, it's not logical to say that God's actions must be measured by time because all of our actions or even all the ones that we can observe are measured by such

Why is it not logical?

Are you implying that God is in another reality?

It is logical if you know that there is only one reality.

All actions are events, all events have duration.
These are mesurable, if mesurable, then they are in time, weather it be God's own time, or ours; weather it be God's actions or ours.

Quote:
That's like a 2D creature denying the possibilities of a 3D world because they are unable to observe it.

If the 2D creatures are inteligent, they would be able to understand that another demntion would have the same reality as there own.

Why are you denying that God has the same reality as we do?

If God is not in our reality, then He is not in reality at all, He would be in the realm of lies.

 2009/7/30 9:44Profile









 Re:

Logic, you say they/we are all missing the point.
What really is the point or goal of you bringing this topic in? Because my initial look at what you have posted rings of vain speculations that gender strife.

In regards to different reality I would say that the Lord God dwells in the reality of spirit. The spirit reality cannot be entered by flesh and blood. We will have to be transformed. Also the Lord tells us in His word that some of the things in heaven man cannot even speak of or comprehend.


So I submitt to you, lets be carefull about reality and lies. We should press onward towards Gods reality and not be as concerned about Him being in OUR reality or our time.

 2009/7/30 10:04
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
savannah wrote:
Any foreknowledge God has originates in His immutable character and His attribute of immutable knowledge.

Such truth is pertinent to refute such erroneous statements of the nature of foreknowlege proposed by men who would make the Word of God to suit their own theological conclusions or rather delusions.

Your making foreknowlege to be something other than what it is.

Foreknowlege is a kind of knowledge; any kind of knowledge is alway an effect, never a cause.
This is contrary to what you are trying to say (perverting the definition of foreknowledge).

God's creation caused His foreknowledge of it.
One can not say that God's foreknowledge caused the creation.

Since God always planed to create mankind (There was never a time when HE did not have a plan to create); the effect of the creation caused God to (fore)know something about it.

However, His foreknowledge is not anything that suddenly happened, but it is as eternal as the plane to create.

The effect of people obeying God's command of repenting by faith is the cause of God's foreknowledge to elect them.

To have it any other way is perverting the definition of the word "foreknowledge", making it be something other than what it is.

 2009/7/30 10:12Profile





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