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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Was Judas a true believer at one point?

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PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I hope you are not saying that the difference in Peter and Judas is that the Lord was not willing to save Judas but he was willing to save Peter. The Lord was willing to save Peter because he would be saved and the Lord did not save Judas only because he would not be saved not because he could not be saved. When Jesus said of Judas that it would have been better for him if he had never been born it is because of the path that he chose for himself.


The crux of my argument was simply that it is impossible to judge the eternal condition of a man's soul by a physical action, hence the juxtaposition of Peter and David and Judas. I am certainly not saying the Lord was unwilling to save Judas; but even if He was, who are we to judge God's reasons? Has not the Potter power over the clay to do with it according to His will?
Quote:
I really think that what ccrider was trying to bring out was that Judas was responsible for his lost miserable condition and was trying to make it clear that the Lord was not responsible for his lost condition.


This is a theological issue, of which there are myriads of threads on SermonIndex already concocted that attempt to resolve this. It is too volatile an issue for us to discuss, one that is never ending, and of which both sides are able to confute with sound scripture proofs.
Quote:
they want to blame God for Judas and other lost people going to hell.


If Judas' path was indeed "the path he chose for himself" (I'm not saying it wasn't), it must have been a path known by God that he would take before the world was created. This makes perfect sense, and it reconclies the theological dilemma...but, even if it [i]wasn't[/i] the case, and God arbitrarily raised up a piece of clay named Judas to be the betrayer of His Son to fulfill scripture, I am okay with this too.

Either way, God is God and I am dust.


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Paul Frederick West

 2009/7/8 0:30Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

At the recent conferance held in Norway , speaker Zac Poonen mentioned something of interest, he mentioned the verse that says "Judas [i]became[/i] the traitor"

Luk 6:16 Judas of James, and Judas Iscariot, who also became betrayer;) YLT

And Poonens point was that Jesus spent his whole night in prayer, he never prayed all night for a healing, or for any other miracle, but this night was special, he was to select the foundation of the church, it would effect the whole purposes of God with his church from then and forward. It was His most critical decision. And Poonen pointed out it was his belief God does not play with man to decide wheter they will go to hell, but he foresaw and knew, but that when Jesus selected Judas he was a wholehearted man just like any of the others he selected. He became the betrayer, to become something we have to be something different from the start.

Not sure i captured all brother Zac said, but i thought it was more food for thought here.

Myself dont know, i have a problem with God "electing" someone with them having no what so ever thing to do with their eternal destiny, but i dont think this one we can fully understand how ever we look at it.

I think this what you said Paul:

Quote:
If Judas' path was indeed "the path he chose for himself" (I'm not saying it wasn't), it must have been a path known by God that he would take before the world was created. This makes perfect sense, and it reconclies the theological dilemma



I think this at the moment is closest to my understanding of God and His ways. But maybe ill get more revelation further down the path.


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/7/9 9:48Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Thanks to all who posted,

Knowing something ahead of time does not necessarily change destiny. Notice Jesus knew all things that should come upon Him but did not alter one bit in his destiny of pleasing his Father. Jesus is most awesome in how he followed the path of suffering for all men to save all those who would just believe in Him completely.

John 18:4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?

We must also realize that just because God knows everything does not mean that He can interfere with man’s choices in this life. God has said that He has set before us life and death; he wants us to choose life, but if we are intent on choosing death then God will finally have to let us.

Jesus wept over the city of Jerusalem because they would not come to him for everlasting life, for He can not save us if we will not cooperate with Him.

Blessings to all!

 2009/7/9 12:24Profile
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3393
East TN (for now)

 Re: Zac Poonen in Norway

Christian,

Is this in one of the sermons you recently posted?


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Lisa

 2009/7/10 8:06Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

yes, i think it is this one, i have little time to check right now, but it is in the first 15 minutes of the message, if it is not let me know and ill search out the right one.

[url=http://ordetslys.no/poonen/audio/2009/090703-Bibelweekend.mp3]What God did for His first Son He will do for all His children[/url]


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/7/10 8:44Profile
yblek
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Joined: 2004/7/2
Posts: 35


 Re:

Be careful to compare a donkey talking to demons being cast out and the dead being raised. If Judas had this type of power given by Christ Himself, He had to be a believer otherwise it would be satan casting out satan. This is an impossibility!

No one has given me an example of someone who was an unbeliever that God gave authority and power over demons, raised the dead, healed every sickness! Still waiting!


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Kelby

 2009/7/12 23:46Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Quote:
No one has given me an example of someone who was an unbeliever that God gave authority and power over demons, raised the dead, healed every sickness! Still waiting!



Answer: Judas

 2009/7/13 8:09Profile
yoadam
Member



Joined: 2009/2/10
Posts: 97
OREGON

 Re:

Quote:

whyme wrote:
Quote:
No one has given me an example of someone who was an unbeliever that God gave authority and power over demons, raised the dead, healed every sickness! Still waiting!



Answer: Judas


Amen. & Judas was not a Christian, but in fact "a devil"

[b]70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?[/b]-John 6:70


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Adam

 2009/7/14 5:50Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Joh 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

when looking at these verses and seeing it has the word betray, we should remember scripture says he became the betrayer, he was not always a betrayer, so it is also possible he was not always a devil, the devil himself was once the most beautiful angel, in the same way there is a possibility Judas once was the most wholehearted follower of Jesus and became a devil.

Not sure, but there is a possibility.


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/7/14 6:12Profile
yoadam
Member



Joined: 2009/2/10
Posts: 97
OREGON

 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Joh 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

when looking at these verses and seeing it has the word betray, we should remember scripture says he became the betrayer, he was not always a betrayer, so it is also possible he was not always a devil, the devil himself was once the most beautiful angel, in the same way there is a possibility Judas once was the most wholehearted follower of Jesus and became a devil.

Not sure, but there is a possibility.



impossible.

Jesus said in John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

This would have also applied Judas, had he been a "true believer."

Well then perhaps you may be thinking, "Judas was not "cast out", but snatched out by the devil?"

impossible.

Jesus said in John 10:28-29, "28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand."

Perhaps you may be thinking, "Yes, no [i]man[/i] can pluck him, but that does not mean the [i]devil[/i] cannot pluck him."

incorrect.

The word [i]man[/i] is actually not in the original greek, it is merely implied. For example, the ESV, the NASB, and the NKJV all translate the word "one". So "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." (ESV)
So, no [i]man[/i] or even [i]no one[/i] can pluck-- not even the devil.

Well then perhaps you may be thinking, "Judas was not snatched out, but rather he himself 'jumped out' in rejecting his salvation."

impossible.

Jesus said in John 6:39-40, "39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

So we see Jesus loses none which the Father gives to Him, all that are given to Jesus by the Father will be raised up at the last day. Every one that believe on Jesus are raised up at the last day.

Also,
John 6:44, "44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

So all who are drawn by the Father are raised up at the last day.

Maybe someone is wondering, "but does being raised up at the last day mean everlasting life?"

absolutely.

This is distinctly Johannine writing style and speaks clearly of eternal life. This is undeniably clear, as in verse 40,

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Praise the Lord that everlasting life is everlasting life indeed!

[b]16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.[/b]

Now stop scaring the hell out of all the believers and rather teach the believers to look unto Christ, the author and finisher of our faith! (See, Heb. 12:2)

Hebrews 4:14-16,
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1 John 1:8-10,
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Please read [url=http://www.gracegems.org/24/Ryle_lord_our_righteousness.htm]THE LORD (JESUS) (IS) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.[/url] (J.C. Ryle Content)

Numbers 6:24-27,
"24 The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
25 The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
26 The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
27 And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them."


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Adam

 2009/7/14 6:56Profile





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