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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Was Judas a true believer at one point?

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PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
2 Sam 12:12 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." (not a clear indication of remorse here but an immediate realization... and subsequent scripture below puts David's heart in a more contextual light)



Brother, I have to repeat: This confession came from David only [i]after Nathan confronted him.[/i] It was not a response that came about immediately after he sinned. As a matter of fact, a good case can be brought as to God sending Natahan [i]because[/i] David didn't feel any need to repent. Why else send the prophet? God sends prophets for emergency situations, to paraphrase Tozer. "Conscience-stricken" is the word in 2 Samuel 24, and like you said, Judas too felt this same compunction, when he threw the pieces of silver down and went and hanged himself, but whereas Peter turned his remorse into repentance, Judas took his life in the throes of remorse. That Judas failed to address his remorse as "sinning against God" per se really makes no difference to me; he knew Jesus was innocent...and no one can acknowledge the diety of Christ like Satan, for he is an eye-witness to His glory. Whether or not Judas knew Christ was divine I think is irrelevant. I tend to think he didn't, because the opposite, to me, is unthinkable. But I am reminded that angels with the knowledge of glory also sinned and committed treason.

Both men experienced profound remorse for sinning against God, but whereas one was saved, the other was lost. One wept bitterly and one hanged himself. Both were implicated with Satan at one point, but one was saved and one was lost. Both were disciples of Christ, but one was foretold to betray the Son of man, and the other wasn't.

Now, the million dollar question is this: in light of scripture, which event brought about which - did the betrayal bring about Judas, or did Judas bring about the betrayal?


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2009/7/7 7:57Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

One distinction I can see between Peter and Judas is what Jesus said to Peter prior to his betrayal. In that statement, Jesus said he prayed that Peter's faith would not fail which Jesus did not pray in the case of Judas. In Peter's case some would argue that by virtue of the betrayal, Jesus' prayer for Peter's faith not to fail was answered in the negative. I say otherwise. I think Peter failed in the betrayal, Peter's faith however did not fail because after Peter's failure, his faith overcame his own personal unbelief when he turned ultimately to become a leader of the church and a comfort to the brethern who also fail due to unbelief. Judas had no such prayer for him and in fact never turned in true repentance and faith and I argue never had it in the first place.

 2009/7/7 8:03Profile









 Re:

Qoute:

"Again, either you're not reading my posts clearly, or you're jumping the gun. This confession came from David only after Nathan confronted him. It was not a response that came about immediately after he sinned. "Conscience-stricken" is the word in 2 Samuel 24, and it is a state that even the uncoverted experience (as you agree) after "stealing the cookie from the cookie jar" so to speak. If you want to really get technical, Judas too felt this same compunction, threw the pieces of silver down and went and hanged himself." Brother Paul

And clearly you are not reading mine as I never ONCE SAID that Judas was not remorseful. As a matter of fact I said he was upset and if you want to go beyond 'upset' to 'remorseful' I will. For the sake of argument I will say that Judas was in a remorseful state. But it was indeed THE MOTIVE OF REMORSE that I was addressing. As in WHO HAD THE HEART FOR GOD IN THEIR REMORSE?? Again I said that it seems Peter and David proved their faithfulness in repentance in moving forward as Judas did not as I have already previously stated.

your Quote:

"He was "conscience-stricken" for betraying the blood of an innocent man, but whereas Peter turned his remorse into repentance, Judas took his life in the throes of remorse." Brother Paul

My previous Quote: "Again as I mentioned before it seems that Judas was upset over his ransoming of Jesus' whereabouts but identified his act as 'shedding innocent blood' and not 'I have sinned against my Lord'... nor was there any indication that he knew the Lord as Peter did when he said 'you are the Christ, Son of the living God.' I think this is the difference in the two types of remorse. It may not be repentance, as you state, but I think in these cases with David and Peter it was the beginning of repentance. Both proved their faithfulness in moving on in repentance, this isn't so with Judas" ccrider

Clearly you are saying much of what I quoted previously about the subsequent actions of Peter in terms of remorse to repentance.. and the contrast to Judas' actions moving forward as in throwing silver and hanging himself in the same compunction as you put it. So please, don't accuse me of jumping the gun if you're going to repeat a context of what I said earlier (especially when I PM you acknowledging that I may have jumped the gun earlier and apologized.... which I feel is necessary when I actually do).

And you may not have understood my earlier post clearly when I said this:

"Let me clarfy this. When David and Peter realized their sin they were immediately remorseful. You don't get this way from not having a heart for God." cc-

I clarified earlier, indicated above, that it was when they REALIZED their sin they were remorseful, I didn't mean to imply that it was right after the sin itself. So your point was taken in terms of 'immediately after sin', hence my clarification that the implication I was making was after they were convicted. Had I disagreed with your assessment I would not have felt a need to clarify in the first place. The whole concept of remorse is based on a reaction to a known offense or a REVEALED OFFENSE that one is seemingly blind to. I would like to think that most remorse occurs shortly after the offense IS REALIZED as an offense(especially if one is concerned for grieving the heart of God), as it would not make sense to go 'oops' several months down the line after a rebuke from the likes of Nathan to a heart like David's. Nathan was sent to help David realize his sin and Peter realized his sin after the 3rd crow of the rooster. WHEN THEY REALIZED THEIR OFFENSE to God they were remorseful and subsequently repented.

But to me, the time of the remorse and subsequent repentance isn't as important as the motive for their remorse. Whenever the remorse occured, it was in the realization of an offense to someone they loved, and that someone happened to be God. This was the case with Peter and David as it demonstrated their love for God, and again I did not see this in Judas. Therefore I do not glean the same motive for remorse between David, Peter.... and Judas.





 2009/7/7 8:36
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

ccrider,

I believe I read somewhere that the time between David's Bathsheba adultery and the time of Nathan's rebuke was at least a year. I would gather that to suggest David's remorse was immediate would be overstating the revealed case.

 2009/7/7 9:07Profile









 Re:

Quote:
ccrider,

"I believe I read somewhere that the time between David's Bathsheba adultery and the time of Nathan's rebuke was at least a year. I would gather that to suggest David's remorse was immediate would be overstating the revealed case." whyme

"Let me clarfy this. When David and Peter realized their sin they were immediately remorseful. You don't get this way from not having a heart for God." cc-

I agree whyme which is why I clarified later on from the above quote that my point was that they were remorseful after they REALIZED THEIR SIN. I'm not sure how someone can be remorseful to something if they are not willing to realize that 'something', despite how it may be revealed or the time lag involved. So I assumed the implication I made would be taken as such. To clarify again.. I was speaking of David's and Peter's heart in their motive for remorse in offending God and how this seemed to differ from Judas. Especially given that after their initial brokenness, both men moved on in repentance. Thank you sir.

 2009/7/7 9:19
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
agree whyme which is why I clarified later on from the above quote that my point was that they were remorseful after they REALIZED THEIR SIN.


I'm sorry, but I believe your original context was "immediately remorseful", which has absolutey no scriptural substantiation. "Immediately remorseful" reads exactly how it appears. Now, you have added the qualifier (or clarifier, as you put it) "after they realized their sin". Either way, God had His hand in effectuating repentance from both David and Peter; both were defiant and unrepentant until God intervened. We really don't read of God intervening with Judas however. He was given the "blood money", and only after he discovered Jesus was to be tried as a criminal and threatened with a death sentence did he realize his sin.

Your last post to me seemed a bit agitated in tenor. I've noticed the CAPS coming into play here, and I don't continue discussions with people shouting at me. If we can't hatch this out calmly and rationally, we should just walk away. I think this is becoming a contest on who can be right and have the last word anyhow.

Thank you for the discussion. Praise God our salvation is not contingent on knowledge of Judas' salvific condition. I would rather discontinue this here and now just agree to disagree. The topic at hand is not worth losing our cool.

Brother Paul


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Paul Frederick West

 2009/7/7 20:28Profile
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 600


 Re: Was Judas a true believer at one point?

Quote:
Was Judas a true believer at one point?



What do you exactly mean when you say 'true believer'? Do you mean if he had been born again, or had been one of the elect?






 2009/7/7 22:18Profile









 Re:

Shhhhhhhewwwwwy!!! Glad that's finally over. You get the last word on this one Brother. I wasn't angry per se... just frustrated that my intentions did not seem to be articulated well with my written posts. I felt like I was beating my head against a wall in what I was really trying to convey, which is fine... it happens. It's my issue. My intentions were sincere though. Take care Paul.

 2009/7/7 22:23
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
My intentions were sincere though


Brother, this was never doubted for a moment! It's definately an acquired skill to be able to manuever through these thread discussions and successfully convey what you do mean and supress that which you do not. I've been here for a few years and still fail miserably at it from time to time. This thread is the proof.

No ill feelings toward you at all; only at myself for not handling our discussion more adroitly and lucidly. The real kicker is that I feel we agree on more than we realize here. It's the medium by which we are expressing our thoughts that obfuscates the expression. Were we face-to-face, there would be no discrepancies - only warm accord and brotherly fellowship. This I can assure you.

God bless you richly,

Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2009/7/7 22:40Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Paul & ccrider,

I’m glad you both are good brethren who can keep peace between one another even in the midst of some slight misunderstanding in some of your posts.

Please allow me to comment and say that I enjoyed the truth that you both saw in the experiences of those in the bible who fell into sin but there is something I need clarification on.

Ccrider I think I understand what you were trying to say, and if I did, then I am in total agreement with you. The main difference in Peter (also David) and in Judas is the heart being attached to the Lord in the case of Peter, and there being no real heart experience to the Lord in the situation of Judas, because he was all for himself and not having an affection for the Lord Jesus.

Judas was not in a saving relation with the Lord because he had never repented in the first place. Now Peter did love the Lord but fell into denying the Lord because of his own weakness. The one thing that many fail to mention is that Peter had all intentions to be true to the Lord but went about it the wrong way and therefore received no help from the Lord in his error. He was ready to fight for the Lord and did cut off a soldiers ear but the Lord heal him and also reprimanded Peter. Judas was a devil and a thief and betrayed the Lord for money. Peter loved the Lord as best at the time that he knew how and would not have betrayed the Lord for money (if that is what you were implying Paul from your writings, I must disagree here).

Paul you brought out some very good points but I hope you are not saying that the difference in Peter and Judas is that the Lord was not willing to save Judas but he was willing to save Peter. The Lord was willing to save Peter because he would be saved and the Lord did not save Judas only because he would not be saved not because he could not be saved. When Jesus said of Judas that it would have been better for him if he had never been born it is because of the path that he chose for himself.

I really think that what ccrider was trying to bring out was that Judas was responsible for his lost miserable condition and was trying to make it clear that the Lord was not responsible for his lost condition. The sad thing is that so many with one breath they want to praise God for their salvation, that they are so unworthy of (which is so true), but in the other breath they want to blame God for Judas and other lost people going to hell.

Blessings to you all!

 2009/7/7 23:31Profile





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