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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Was Judas a true believer at one point?

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 Re:

It seems that I was mistaken concerning your context brother Paul. Please see my PM message.

 2009/7/6 20:02
reformer
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 Re: Was Judas a true believer at one point?

Quote:
God CAN NOT give that type of authority and power to an unbeliever!



This is a bold statement!! How do you know what God can or can not do...I believe God will use any circumstance or person to bring about a purpose. Something about a donkey rings in my mind!

reformer

 2009/7/6 20:56Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

brnagn wrote:
I agree.

Was Judas a believer?
1st what makes someone a beliver?

When Jesus asked Peter who they said he was, they gave alot of answers. When Jesus asked Peter he answered and gave the only true answer. Jesus then said only His Father could have revealed this to him.

Was Judas a beliver?
No.



John 6:64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus [b]knew[/b] from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.

 2009/7/6 21:03Profile
PaulWest
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 Re:

Quote:
it seems that scripture defines Peter's cowardice in a much different light than Judas' heart of depravity. Scripture indicates to me that Peter was zealous for the Lord and Judas was zealous for himself. And this in spite of the individual acts and specific behaviors of each man.


My point, dear brother, was that both Peter [i]and[/i] Judas were depraved; it was not only Judas. Both had the capacity for betrayal, both could steal. Though Judas stole money, Peter, in essence, stole his life and reputation back by preventing any kind of association with Christ in the garden. If Peter had any inclination at all to repent afterwards, it was because God granted it to him (2 Tim 2:25). Besides, Jesus knew beforehand that he would be restored (Luke 22:32). He knew Peter would fail, and addressed it before the fact, and He knew he would repent. It's important to note that Jesus didn't say "if you are converted again, strengthen your brethren"; He said "[i]when[/i] you are converted again, strengthen your brethren". He knew Peter's choice irrespective of time, because I believe the knowledge of what would transpire took place even before Peter was born.

Now, if Peter afterward relished in doing the will of God, we know this was also given to him by God, for Paul states that "it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

It is my own conjecture that God raised up Judas as a Potter would raise a lump of clay for either a vessel of honor or of dishonor. Whether or not he was born-again and lost his salvation or was never born-again is really a moot case as far as I'm concerned. If one is going to judge his independant motives by his actions, I think a strong nullifying cause can be made from similarly abhorrent accounts in others as well.

I read about Peter, I read about Judas and Thomas and Ananias and Saul of Tarsus and I'm ready to think lofty thoughts about myself in defense. God always tells me to put my hand underneath my bosom in such instances and then pull it out and tell Him what I see. It always comes back white and leperous and I am reminded once again that without the grace of God I am Judas the Betrayer, I am Thomas the Doubter, I am Saul the Self-Rightous Murderer, I am Peter the Coward, and I am Ananias the Greedy Liar. Without the on-going grace of God and the ever-cleansing fountain of blood I am all of these and more.

Btw, I read your PM. Thank you brother.

Brother Paul


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Paul Frederick West

 2009/7/6 21:22Profile
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 Re:

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I read about Peter, I read about Judas and Thomas and Ananias and Saul of Tarsus and I'm ready to think lofty thoughts about myself in defense. God always tells me to put my hand underneath my bosom in such instances and then pull it out and tell Him what I see. It always comes back white and leperous and I am reminded that without the grace of God I am Judas the Betrayer, I am Thomas the Doubter, I am Saul the Self-Rightous Murderer, I am Peter the Coward, I am Ananias the Greedy Liar. Without the on-going grace of God and the ever-cleanising fountain of blood I am all of these and more.



Well said Paul. Its not so much that we realize how obedient we are, but how weak we are.

 2009/7/6 21:52Profile









 Re:

"Though Judas stole money, Peter, in essence, stole his life and reputation back by preventing any kind of association with Christ in the garden. If Peter had any inclination at all to repent afterwards, it was because God granted it to him (2 Tim 2:25)." Brother Paul

I guess I'm not seeing this in that context which seems a little more abstract and generalized than my observation of both men. I have to go back to a previous post that quoted Jesus as describing Judas as 'a devil'. Given this, I see no judgment in motives... as the judgment of 'devil' was already given to us by Christ himself. This was before either man betrayed Jesus. I'm not judging Judas' independent actions and motives based on observation on scant information, I'm judging based on what the Bible says about Judas. It calls him a 'devil' and a 'thief'. My interpretation of this goes to the heart of Judas to which the subsequent independent actions bore themsleves out. There is nothing that I see in the Bible's description of Judas that he was a man who had a heart for God but kept flubbing up (not to minimize Peter's mistakes) as in the case of Peter. I believe that we get a glimpse of the heart of each man in their remorse as I wrote below. Peter was never called a 'devil' nor do I believe his denial was tantamount to Judas' betrayal.

"He knew Peter would fail, and addressed it before the fact, and He knew he would repent." Brother Paul

It's agreed that Jesus knew Peter's choice ahead of time, but let's not forget that this speaks to the heart of Peter as someone who was genuinely remorseful and loved Christ, as well as God's sovereignty and foresight to this fact. I just don't see that in Judas. As with David and Saul, God foresaw the choices of both men but one had a heart for God and the other for himself. This, in my opinion, goes beyond the ramifications of a simple choice in sin. One makes a mistake but in that mistake still has a heart for God, the other is self driven, or came to be this way, and was not willing to give 'self' up. The choice is driven in what master they want to serve. Like Peter, David saw right away his sin and was distraught at the offense to his Lord. God's mercy is sovereign but I think it must consider the heart of the offender in genuine remorse and subsequent repentance.

 2009/7/6 22:40
PaulWest
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 Re:

Quote:
Peter was never called a 'devil' nor do I believe his denial was tantamount to Judas' betrayal.


"Get behind me Satan" was the Lord's address to Peter. Of course, the Lord was speaking to Satan at this point and not Peter, but we know Satan had infiltrated Peter's consciousness and was speaking through him, addressing Christ. What we are witnessing is the reciprocation. Peter couldn't have known the diabolic implications of dissuading Christ from going to the cross. We further read that Satan didn't enter Judas Iscariot until during the final Passover.
Quote:
Like Peter, David saw right away his sin and was distraught at the offense to his Lord.


David did not see right away, and neither did Peter, until God intervened. In David's case, the Lord sent Nathan after an undisclosed period of unrepentant time; with Peter it wasn't until Christ turned and looked him in the courtyard. We see God's active intervention in both cases, but Judas was not restrained, nor was repentance granted, but rather Jesus sent him out to fulfill the scriptures" "What you're going to do, do it quickly."

Brother Paul


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Paul Frederick West

 2009/7/6 22:59Profile









 Re:

Let me clarfy this. When David and Peter realized their sin they were immediately remorseful. You don't get this way from not having a heart for God.

Quote

"We further read that Satan didn't enter Judas Iscariot until during the final Passover."

I believe Satan entered a man with a heart for himself.. one who was labelled a devil and a thief by scripture. Jesus said 'ONE' of you is a devil... not all of you. The one who was proclaimed such was given to Satan. I just fail to see Satan entering anyone who had a heart for God and His Son. I'm not judging Judas, I'm looking at scripture and drawing a conclusion. Tragedy is there for many in the Bible, what that means for their eternity I don't know. But I can't deny the worms that ate up Herod or the devil that came into Judas. And I can't deny the events leading up to this. It is what it is.

This doesn't mean that we are not depraved sinners who don't deserve God's wrath, that's never been my point here. It means that we see this state via the Holy Spirit and love Our Lord with a heart for Him. The bible speaks of men who realize this and those who did not. I'm no better than anyone else and never implied that in my posts, but I do sense that implication here. I thank God for His mercy upon me. But I also have to have wisdom in understanding of the fall of those in the Bible, I'm not sure how that's judgmental... I just see it as a part of an overall perspective and caveat for those who want to glean from God's word.

 2009/7/6 23:30
PaulWest
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 Re:

Quote:
When David and Peter realized their sin they were immediately remorseful


I see what you're saying, and I really don't mean to be pedantic, but remorse is not the same as repentance. Man in his natural state is remorseful when his conscience is transgressed; remorse is possible without God; repentance is not. Although I agree with you about the immediate state of remorse in men (that is, until the conscience becomes seared), you really don't find any verses stating Peter and David were immediately remoreseful.
Quote:
Jesus said 'ONE' of you is a devil... not all of you.


There was only one betrayer needed to fulfill Zechariah 11, and the man was not Peter; it was Judas. "The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born" (Matthew 26:24). "One" was devil, because it was a "man" and not men who betrayed Christ. Though all his disciples abandoned Him in the garden, it was not counted as betrayal to their account. This would be a violation of prophecy.

Quote:
I'm no better than anyone else and never implied that in my posts but I do sense that implication here. I thank God for His mercy upon me. But I also have to have wisdom in understanding of the fall of those in the Bible, I'm not sure how that's judgmental


I'm sorry if my posts have given you that impression. I think we are generally speaking the same thing, just coming at it through different angles.

God bless!

Brother Paul


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Paul Frederick West

 2009/7/7 0:13Profile









 Re:

"Man in his natural state is remorseful when his conscience is transgressed; remorse is possible without God; repentance is not." Brother Paul

I agree that remorse is possible without God but my point is that both men were remorseful because they offended God. And this comes from having a heart for God. That was the crux of my point. I have to disagree with you though about immediate remorse:

2 Sam 12:12 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." (not a clear indication of remorse here but an immediate realization... and subsequent scripture below puts David's heart in a more contextual light)


2 Samuel 24:10 (New International Version)

"10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the LORD, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, O LORD, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing."

Matthew 26:25

"Immediately a rooster crowed. 75Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken: "Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times." And he went outside and wept bitterly."

We can split hairs on the definition of remorse or what constitutes 'immediate' but each man realized their sin and reacted in appropriate manner for a man with a heart for God. Paul Washer talked of brokenness over sin as an offense to God as an attribute of a Godly man and I think scripture bears this out here. Again as I mentioned before it seems that Judas was upset over his ransoming of Jesus' whereabouts but identified his act as 'shedding innocent blood' and not 'I have sinned against my Lord'... nor was there any indication that He knew the Lord as Peter did when he said 'you are the Christ, Son of the living God.' I think this is the difference in the two types of remorse. It may not be repentance, as you state, but I think in these cases with David and Peter it was the beginning of repentance. Both proved their faithfulness in moving on in repentance, this isn't so with Judas.

As far as the prophecy with only one betrayer needed to fulfill Zachariah 11 I think we agree. That 'one', as we later see, was Judas as it states in Zachariah. But I don't think this precludes the state of a man's heart that is used for this purpose. I don't think God will use someone who loves Him (as depraved as they may be) and is sincere in their intentions to follow Him to fulfill the betrayal in the garden. God foresaw the heart of Judas and used Him to fulfill a purpose but it was still Judas' heart that was his biggest problem... not God. The simple point, after all my rigmarole, I'm trying to make is that even though God chose 12 men to follow His Son, one was not a true follower. I think this is clear and contradicts the original point of Judas being 'a follower of Christ'. My opinion from scripture was that Judas was a disciple in name only... Again I don't see that as a judgment, and I don't think it's a high minded conclusion, it's just what I glean from Scripture.


 2009/7/7 7:25





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