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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Was Judas a true believer at one point?

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yblek
Member



Joined: 2004/7/2
Posts: 35


 Was Judas a true believer at one point?

Luke 9:1 states that Jesus called his Twelve Disciples together and gave them authority over all devils (demons) and to cure diseases. Judas was one of the twelve. Jesus, the Son of God, gave Judas authority over demons, which means Judas must have been a yielded vessel. From this, we know Judas at one point was a true believer and follower of Christ. God CAN NOT give that type of authority and power to an unbeliever!

Matthew Chapter 10:1-8 (Cross Reference For Luke 9:1)

* 1.
* He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

* 2.
* These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;

* 3.
* Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;

* 4.
* Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

* 5.
* These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.

* 6.
* Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

* 7.
* As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.'

* 8.
* Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

Judas did all of these along with the other disciples! He was a true follower of Christ


_________________
Kelby

 2009/7/6 12:08Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Was Judas a true believer at one point?

I agree bro.

Judas was a disciple of the Lord and therefore he left ft all to follow Jesus (Lk. 14:33). He picked up his cross (Lk. 14:27) and even loved Jesus more then his own family (Lk. 14:26). Judas was picked by Jesus specifically to cast out devils, heal, and preach (Matt 10:1-27). Judas was a friend Jesus trusted (Ps. 41:9; Jn 13:18), so Judas kept the money (Jn. 12:6; 13:29). Jesus told Judas that He was shedding His blood for him (Lk. 22:14-20), and previously said that His name was written in the Lambs book of life (Lk. 10:20). Jesus even said that Judas was one of His sheep (Matt. 10:1-4, 16), who received His truth (Matt 10:1-4, 8), who’s Father was God (Matt 10:1-4, 20), who even had a throne in Heaven upon which he would judge Israel (Matt. 19:28; Lk. 22:30). But then later we see that Judas became a devil (Jn. 6:70) and therefore it would have been better for him to have never been born (Mk. 14:21). He even began to steal money from the group (Jn. 12:6). Judas fell from his apostleship by his transgression (Acts 1:25) because He failed to do what Jesus picked him for. His name was blotted out of the book of life (Ex. 23:33; Rev. 3:5). (Jesse Morrell)

"For both Saul and Judas were once good...Sometimes they are at first good, who afterward become and continue evil; and for this respect they are said to be written in the book of life, and blotted out of it." (St. Ambrose)

 2009/7/6 13:39Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

John 6:70... Jesus says one of the Twelve is a devil referring to Judas. Strange way to refer to a child of God if he were one. Further, in that same chapter John says some of the disciples departed not to return because of Jesus' hard teaching and it says in reference to those departing "disciples" that Jesus knew which of them did not really believe. Disciple does not equal believer in this context and in the same versus, Judas is called a devil before he ever chooses to betray Jesus. Does this not settle this issue?

 2009/7/6 14:40Profile
brnagn
Member



Joined: 2009/7/6
Posts: 8


 Re:

I agree.

Was Judas a believer?
1st what makes someone a beliver?

When Jesus asked Peter who they said he was, they gave alot of answers. When Jesus asked Peter he answered and gave the only true answer. Jesus then said only His Father could have revealed this to him.

Was Judas a beliver?
No.

 2009/7/6 14:57Profile
rnieman
Member



Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 146


 Re: Was Judas a true believer at one point?

One can't ignore

Quote:
Mathew 7:22-23

either in regards to Judas.

 2009/7/6 15:11Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

whyme wrote:
John 6:70... Jesus says one of the Twelve is a devil referring to Judas. Strange way to refer to a child of God if he were one. Further, in that same chapter John says some of the disciples departed not to return because of Jesus' hard teaching and it says in reference to those departing "disciples" that Jesus knew which of them did not really believe. Disciple does not equal believer in this context and in the same versus, Judas is called a devil before he ever chooses to betray Jesus. Does this not settle this issue?



Whyme, let's also remember that Jesus looked at Peter, and said " Matt 16:33 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, [b]Satan[/b]: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. If Judas is referred to as "a" devil, and Peter is referred to as "Satan (the devil)" which is worse? Some disciples did depart Jesus because of his hard teachings, but Judas was not amongst that set that left in John 6. Actually, Judas did believe and was sure who Christ was:
John 6:67 67 Then said Jesus unto the [b]twelve, Will ye also go away[/b]? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 [b]And WE believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.[/b]

WE being all 12 disciples, had that testimony. I would also add, that Jesus once said to Peter :

Matt 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Apparently, since ALL 12 of them believed and were sure that Christ was the Son of God-then apparently God the Father would have revealed this to all of them individually as well, and not just Peter. All 12 cast out devils, and Jesus said that Satan CANNOT cast out Satan-Judas was more than a disciple, he was an Apostle (who Apostasized)-his lost his Bishop-prick as Acts 1 states.

 2009/7/6 15:12Profile









 Re:

It's interesting that you (Logic) quote Jesse Morrell, a sad case of apostasy himself (not saying their can't be repentance though). Jesse denies that God knows the future, that all men are sinful by nature and children of wrath, that Christ actually paid for our sins on the cross, and that regeneration is a miracle of the Holy Spirit. He denies all this with his Moral Government Theology that he got from reading Finney and throwing out the Bible other than to twist his proof texts to fit the ends of proving his heretical beliefs. In fact, Jesse was banned from this message board a long time ago as all could see his departure from Christianity in doctrine and in practice. So seeing he was banned, I don't think it is proper to put his name back on here.

With regard to Judas Iscariot, obvoiously he was never saved. "One of you IS a devil", Jesus said (John 6:70). This was in the midst of all the "wonderful works" he did in the name of Jesus (Mat. 7:21-23). Jesse Morrell's little proof texts again don't cut it, because wherein he tries to put all that in chronological order (as if to say that Judas fell and [i]became[/i] a devil), the fact is that Jesus said that Judas was a devil ALL along. Jesus said this about Judas long before he betrayed Him.

Actually, according to the Psalm that Peter quotes in Acts 1, referring to Judas, it looks like he stood condemned before he was ever born. He came for a purpose in the sovereign will of God, a vessel of wrath fit for destruction. It is clear in reading the description of Judas and the curse upon him in that Psalm that he was a very wicked man all along.

[i]They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (1 John 2:19).[/i]

Judas Iscariot never received the indwelling Holy Spirit. He was never born again. Never converted. Never loved righteousness and hated iniquity.




 2009/7/6 15:12
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

The role of Judas was prophesied in the OT as the betrayer, a necessary ingredient along with Christ's entrance on the donkey into Jerusalem and the subsequent rejection by His people in order to fulfill the scriptures.

Have you ever thought about which is worse: publically abandoning and then denying Christ with an pejorative oath like Peter, or secretly stealing some sheckels from a bag?

Why was the moneybag-thief chosen by God to be the accursed betrayer of the Son of Man and the cowardly denyer the "rock" Christ would build His church upon? This really takes on grand proportion as we try to comprehend that God knew about, forsaw, and even wrote about (so we would know He knew) hundreds of years before these things that came to pass. In fact, they were all laid out even before the foundations of the world.

Later we see that another thief (however, this one hung on the cross) would be the first confirmed salvation we read of in the NT.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2009/7/6 17:49Profile









 Re:

"Have you ever thought about which is worse: publically abandoning and then denying Christ with an pejorative oath like Peter, or secretly stealing some sheckels from a bag?" Brother Paul

Perhaps I'm mistaken with your post in it's entire context and if so I apologize. But, yes I have though of this.... and it seems that scripture defines Peter's cowardice in a much different light than Judas' heart of depravity. Scripture indicates to me that Peter was zealous for the Lord and Judas was zealous for himself. And this in spite of the individual acts and specific behaviors of each man. I can't find anything that suggests otherwise. Judas was not talked about much in Scripture, but when he was, it was not in any favorable capacity.

Peter, despite all of his pitfalls, loved Christ. Although his flesh oriented zeal in giving an oath to Christ was presumptuous and misguided, it was not without a compassionate 'lesson learned' on the other side of his denial of knowing Christ. Notice that Peter did not deny that Jesus was Christ, the Son of God, but that he knew him or was associated with him. Peter still knew who Jesus was. Although this is not admirable in any aspect, I believe it entails a different kind of betrayal. Christ must have thought so because Peter was forgiven and given the Pentecost realization of the Holy Spirit as it was spoken by the prophet Joel.

Did Judas later have remorse for his actions because he believed that he betrayed His Savior, or because he knew he had shed innocent blood? There is a difference here in my opinion. Peter knew that he had offended His Savior.... the one whom he exclaimed "you are the Christ, the Son of The Living God". This revelation seemed to elude Judas. Calling Jesus 'Rabbi' and not 'the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world'(or something to that effect as in what Peter proclaimed) ... statements which reflected the true revelation of the Messiah is telling to me.

Perhaps Peter could be more culpable for his actions being that he had the revelation of who Christ was, but his zeal to speak presumptuosly was seen as fleshly arrogance and not an outright malicious opposition to his Savior.

The foreknowledge of God nothwithstanding, if we take the lives of these two individuals in the context of Scripture, I fail to see any moral equality in their intentions towards Christ.

 2009/7/6 19:42









 Re:

Quote:
1st what makes someone a beliver?



any one can "believe", even demons believe, the question is, are we "followers".?

 2009/7/6 19:50





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