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lwpray
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 Re: Katz, Israel and the Church




The election and destiny of Israel forms the context of God’s eternal purpose in Christ; it is His eternal mystery; it is the demonstration of His manifold wisdom, because it includes the willingness of Gentiles to extend themselves on behalf of the Jew! There is nothing natural about that; it is totally unnatural and unreasonable. We would hardly extend ourselves for our own flesh and blood; why should we extend ourselves for a people who have been a bane to us and an irritant, and an object of jealousy and resentment? The willingness to do that, at sacrifice, is the demonstration of the wisdom of God, and the ultimate evidence of the triumph of God in Gentiles whom He has taken off the dung heap to make to sit with princes! And if believing Gentiles will succeed in that, indeed, they will sit with princes, ruling and reigning with Christ, in the Millennium and eternally, from His throne!
We are now at the threshold of the Last Days, and we are going to see such furies and conflicts, and such epochal movements of opposition, tugs and tensions that natural things will not sustain us. And that is why the Last Days are marked by ‘a great falling away.’ There is an apostasy in the Church that is even now taking place. What will it be when things become tough, when we open ourselves to opposition and persecution by virtue of our faith? The day will come when the anti-Christ spirit will be global, and believers will not be safe anywhere. How many of us will stand then? Do you see why it is so critical that our faith not rest on natural things, on pseudo-spiritual things and affected spiritualities where choruses or catch-phrases sustain us? We need to become increasingly authentic in God.


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Lars Widerberg

 2004/9/6 13:15Profile
lwpray
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 Re: Katz, Israel and the Church

There is an urgent need to bring in something of prophetic quality to stir minds and hearts to bravery as to matters regarding Israel. The general lukewarmness and relativism in denominational realms will not do when the Lord is about to mobilize a testimony in days ahead which is to set standards for the non-Christian as well as for the Christian when it come to supporting the Holy Spirit in the work necessary leading to a substantial move unto repentance and conversion among the Jews and judgment in regards to anti-jewishness among the many.
We are doing well being brave to begin thinking in terms substantiating the mind of Christ and from this bold position go against the tide and against the mind of the world regarding the Jew.
This position holds a major challenge to the Church general. And the ones who dare go in the front line do well choosing a language which provokes. Prophetic candour and thereby prophetic offence will move those who are willing to a firm stand as watchmen on the wall, defending the eternal values tied to Zion and to the earthly Jerusalem.
It is time to begin to pray for men to be positioned on the walls, in the gap, men who have secured priestliness as a precious possession and who are able to walk in a sacrificial attitude provoking both Jews, Gentiles and Christians to jealousy of what is contained in the salvation which is to be brought out from Zion. A leadership who have gathered spiritual understanding must come into position as a solid defence against shallow neglect, romanticism and outright hostility.
We are all eager to listen to and learn from men like Mr. Katz, who has secured something of a Heavenly disposition in regards to this matter.
Lars W.


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Lars Widerberg

 2004/9/6 13:59Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
The election and destiny of Israel forms the context of God’s eternal purpose in Christ; it is His eternal mystery; it is the demonstration of His manifold wisdom, because it includes the willingness of Gentiles to extend themselves on behalf of the Jew! There is nothing natural about that; it is totally unnatural and unreasonable. We would hardly extend ourselves for our own flesh and blood; why should we extend ourselves for a people who have been a bane to us and an irritant, and an object of jealousy and resentment? The willingness to do that, at sacrifice, is the demonstration of the wisdom of God, and the ultimate evidence of the triumph of God in Gentiles whom He has taken off the dung heap to make to sit with princes! And if believing Gentiles will succeed in that, indeed, they will sit with princes, ruling and reigning with Christ, in the Millennium and eternally, from His throne!


I am sure that others are reading these postings as well as myself. Is no-one going to question these extraordinary statements? There are some long sentences here but if you work your way through them you will discover that 'Gentiles who extend themselves on behalf of the Jew will sit with princes, ruling and reigning with Christ.'

An earlier posting had Art claiming that that support for his view of Israel was the defining attribute of being a member of the true church. Now we have a statement that reigning with Christ is to be determined by 'extending' ourselve towards the Jew.

These are monstrous claims theologically. I find it difficult to think that anyone could believe them, but Art does and I must presume that Lars does as he has posted them. Come on saints, wake up, start to do some thinking and work out how many are to be excluded from the true church and how many are to be excluded from reigning with Christ if Art and Lars are right. Did Spurgeon share this view of Israel or or Fox or Tozer or Campbell Morgan? Did they 'extend' themselves towards the Jews? If not they are excluded from the true church on Art's theology and in spite of their amazing faithfulness and suffering will be denied the joy of ruling with Christ too.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/6 14:41Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
These are monstrous claims theologically. I find it difficult to think that anyone could believe them, but Art does and I must presume that Lars does as he has posted them. Come on saints, wake up, start to do some thinking and work out how many are to be excluded from the true church and how many are to be excluded from reigning with Christ if Art and Lars are right. Did Spurgeon share this view of Israel or or Fox or Tozer or Campbell Morgan? Did they 'extend' themselves towards the Jews? If not they are excluded from the true church on Art's theology and in spite of their amazing faithfulness and suffering will be denied the joy of ruling with Christ too



I would have to answer back by saying that we are all responsible for the light that we receive. If circumstances did not allow these other men to see with clarity the issues which Art Katz has presented, which I'm utterly certain they did not, they will answer to God for the truth they know only.

We are in a different position than many of those men as we are on the backside of a lot of history and research and understanding. Will we hold the truth in unrighteousness, or will we rightly respond to revelation? There has been a tremendous anti-semetic tone to the writings of many people I admire from the past. Even Matthew Henry makes comments at times that make my skin crawl- but I chock it up as ignorance.

I am certain that a careful look at why there are so FEW Jewish believers in the Church today, relative to the first century, ought to shock all of us to the core. It is absolutely a travesty and a disaster. And as we espouse doctrines and attitudes of our fathers that caused much of this we implicate ourselves in that we are doing the deeds of our fathers. Certainly we will not be punished for our father's sins and perhaps cannot confess or apologize for them - but can we not forsake them and adopt a biblical attitude towards reaching the Jews with the Gospel who were faithful to reach the Gentiles? Have we returned the favor? Nay- and in no wise! What if Paul had acted as this in reaching the Gentiles? Why has the church not magnified its office to reach the Jews? We would all had been damned if Paul had taken the attitude towards the Gentiles that I see towards the Jews these 2000 years. The Church has shrugged off their responsibility to reach these people long enough- the time is at hand! How much longer will the grafted in branches boast against those that have been broken off? Will we not fear? How long until God is fed up and says- I likewise shall not spare thee!?

As the Church (especially in the West) moves more and more away from God- how long shall He spare? Modern "Church growth" movements that are apostate maximus and a host of pastors and leaders who refuse to allow God to speak and be known in the Church- are begging God to "not spare thee." We as a whole are in a vile mess and if ever there was a time to Consider what Paul wrote in Romans 11 it is now. Art Katz is very right in saying that we in no way as the Church are provoking anyone to Christ (Jew or Gentile). In my opinion we are manufacturing Atheists we have so misrepresented the reality of God. How long will God dig around and dung this deadness? I have to agree with George Fox when he taught that its not if you can go to the scripture and prove something as to whether or not it is true- but rather, what is the witness of the Holy Ghost? The Pharisee's could prove false doctrine from scripture- but where was the power? Where was the finger of God? Its all subjective anyway as is proven by the literal thousands of books on doctrines. If I can go to the scripture and convincingly prove one thing and someone else equally prove the opposite- is it not subjective? Who is the final arbitrator of truth- is He not the Holy Spirit? What is the Spirit saying unto the Churches? Is He saying neglect the Jews cause their rejected? The Jews don't even recognize the Christ we portray. There are statues of Christ and Mary in which the baby is uncircumcised and all sorts of devilish madness. I'm going to do what I can to reach them as God makes opportunity. I'm going to continue to support and bless them as I am able.

I live within walking distance of Harry S. Truman's home. Every time I pass by his house I feel a sense of God's working in the earth through that man to aid in the acknowledgment of Israel. I will never believe God was not part of the rebirth of that nation. A thousand tractates would not convince me of it. Do a study of the multiplied miracles that are involved in it. A basic encyclopedia will give you enough info to get started. Leonard Ravinhill once stated that you can write America off the day she stops supporting Israel (paraphrased). I believe that to the core. Make no mistake- God is working in that nation and people. I believe I will see much of it before my time expires. :-)

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/6 18:17Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I would have to answer back by saying that we are all responsible for the light that we receive. If circumstances did not allow these other men to see with clarity the issues which Art Katz has presented, which I'm utterly certain they did not, they will answer to God for the truth they know only.

But this isn't what Art is saying. He is saying that now the true church litmus test is a particular view of eschatology; his.

Quote:
The Church has shrugged off their responsibility to reach these people long enough- the time is at hand! How much longer will the grafted in branches boast against those that have been broken off? Will we not fear? How long until God is fed up and says- I likewise shall not spare thee!?

Paul's admonition is not to the church; it is to 'thee' [11:24] and the 'thee' is emphasised in the Greek. This is not a blanket condemnation of the whole church as you imply but an admonition to any individual who 'boasts' himself against historical Israel. I reject your condemnation of the whole church in this way. Who do you think you are to blanket condemn whole generations and continents of Christians who have been faithful to death but don't happen to share your eschatology? BTW God never gets 'fed up'; He sets limits but never runs out of patience.


Quote:
I have to agree with George Fox when he taught that its not if you can go to the scripture and prove something as to whether or not it is true- but rather, what is the witness of the Holy Ghost?

So do you know what the Spirit witnessed to George Fox about Israel? and what if it is different to both you and me, then where do we go? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 KJV) To set your witness against another's in this way is foolishness.

The plain fact is that there is no biblical support for the statement that Art's view of eschatology determines the members of the true church and neither is there biblical evidence to support his view that only those who have 'extended to the Jew' will share the 'millennial rule'. This is extra-biblical revelation and I reject it. I hope others will do the same for the same reasons.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/6 19:14Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I reject your condemnation of the whole church in this way. Who do you think you are to blanket condemn whole generations and continents of Christians who have been faithful to death but don't happen to share your eschatology? BTW God never gets 'fed up'; He sets limits but never runs out of patience.



Hi Bro. Ron,

This is a strange thing, I was reading even last night more madness of certain members of influence of the historical Church and it is only fueling my fear for them. They are the ones who have set the tone through their teachings and influence throughout the centuries. They will give an account I am sure of it.

How much more heritical can a teaching be than to say that God has rejected a people that His word clearly says the opposite- and then try to dance out of the topic and spin it around until the word is made to say the opposite of what is said (i.e. Romans 11:1). Has God cast away His people? Gk. [i][b][size=x-small]may[/size][/b][/i] which is translated in the AV generally as not and sometimes as no. In the KJV it is God Forbid! Yet get commentary after commentary and read "God rejected the Jews." Some such as Wycliff at least will make a distinction and say "national Israel." Yet we read "God has accepted the Gentiles." Hmmm. Has He really? How many Gentiles are saved?

I admire anyone who gave their life for Christ and have done a good deal of time studying John Fox and even some of the Martys Mirror and other works; but let us recall the words of Paul- "Though I gave my body to be burned and have not charity it profits me nothing." What does it profit to give my body to be burned and not feel a deep seated desire to see souls saved to the Jew first and also to the Greek? If we don't love a person enough to desire their salvation- what is the substance of our love? Many will speak in that day of their wonderful works (acts of dunamis)- yet the Lord will say, "I never knew you." Only God knows what shall come of all these people and I hope that they are all saved. But I'm not going to condone their rhetoric for a second seeing from the time of Justin Martyr to this day we have seen the Nazarenes numbers all but wiped out- and much of it was because of the Churches "de-Judaizing."

Did God expect the Gentiles to tell the Jews and make laws that the Jews had to essentially become like Gentiles to be saved? That they could not circumcize their children, etc. Did God expect the Jews to utterly forsake their identity as Jews? No He did not- and the exact opposite is clear from Acts 15. The Jews were not to compel the Gentiles to live as they did- yet why has so many generations expected the Jews to live as do the Gentiles now that the Church is essentially in the hands of the Gentiles? Where was OUR Acts 15 counsel meeting? We never bothered with one.

The Jews certainly share their end of the blame for why there are such a low percentage of Jews who believe today as compared to the 1st Century which I have chronicled in part in Jewish Roots. Katz has even taken the bold step of suggesting that the holocaust was a continuation of God's divine dealings with Israel.


Quote:
Who do you think you are to blanket condemn whole generations and continents of Christians who have been faithful to death but don't happen to share your eschatology?



If what has happened in the Church, especially since Nicea, has not been a wholesale boasting against the broken branches I don't know what Paul could have meant. With the pograms, inquisition, crusades, anti-Judaizing edicts, and the like, I suppose that may not be defined a boasting. The Lord knows if or if not. Yet, I know this much, I'm not building their sepluchers in the matter. shall I praise them in this, I praise them not. I'm not partaking of what they have done. I will confess it as sin and renounce the behavior. I will do what I can to repair some of the damage with the Lord's help.


**** Some Interesting Quotes From Various Church Fathers *****

Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (98-117A.D.) – Epistle to the Magnesians


For if we are still practicing Judaism, we admit that we have not received God’s favor…it is wrong to talk about Jesus Christ and live like Jews. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity.


 


"Epistle of Barnabas" Chapter 4vs 6-7 (between 130A.D. and 138 A.D.)


Take heed to yourselves and be not like some piling up you sins and saying that the covenant is theirs as well as ours. It is ours, but they lost it completely just after Moses received it.


 


Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho (Between 138A.D. and 161 A.D.)


We too, would observe your circumcision of the flesh, your Sabbath days, and in a word, all you festivals, if we were not aware of the reason why they were imposed upon you, namely, because of your sins and the hardness of heart.


 The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark, to set you off from other nations and from us Christians. The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and you cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of you land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city of Jerusalem. Your circumcision of the flesh is the only mark by which you can certainly be distinguished from other men…as I stated before it was by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, God imposed upon you the observence of the sabbath as a mark.


 


Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.) – A ecclesiastical writer and teacher who contributed to the early formation of Christian doctrines.


We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming this conspiracy against the Savior of the human race…hence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election.


 


John Chrysostom (344-407 A.D.) – One of the "greatest" of church fathers; known as "The Golden Mouthed." A missionary preacher famous for his sermons and addresses.


The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason.


From "The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism" by Malcolm Hay


 


St. Augustine (c. 354-430 A.D.), Confessions, 12.14


How hateful to me are the enemies of your Scripture! How I wish that you would slay them (the Jews) with your two-edged sword, so that there should be none to oppose your word! Gladly would I have them die to themselves and live to you!


  


Peter the Venerable – known as "the meekest of men, a model of Christian charity"


Yes, you Jews. I say, do I address you; you, who till this very day, deny the Son of God. How long, poor wretches, will ye not believe the truth? Truly I doubt whether a Jew can be really human… I lead out from its den a monstrous animal, and show it as a laughing stock in the amphitheater of the world, in the sight of all the people. I bring thee forward, thou Jew, thou brute beast, in the sight of all men.


 From "The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism" by Malcolm Hay


 


Martin Luther – 1543


On The Jews and Their Lies


What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? Since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing, we can not tolerate them if we do not wish to share in their lies, curses, and blasphemy. In this way we cannot quench the inextinguishable fire of divine rage nor convert the Jews. We must prayerfully and reverentially practice a merciful severity. Perhaps we may save a few from the fire and flames [of hell]. We must not seek vengeance. They are surely being punished a thousand times more than we might wish them. Let me give you my honest advice.


First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honor of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians, and that we have not wittingly tolerated or approved of such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of His Son and His Christians.


Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. For they perpetrate the same things there that they do in their synagogues. For this reason they ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like gypsies, in order that they may realize that they are not masters in our land, as they boast, but miserable captives, as they complain of incessantly before God with bitter wailing.


Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer-books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught.


Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...


Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews. For they have no business in the rural districts since they are not nobles, nor officials, nor merchants, nor the like. Let them stay at home...If you princes and nobles do not close the road legally to such exploiters, then some troop ought to ride against them, for they will learn from this pamphlet what the Jews are and how to handle them and that they ought not to be protected. You ought not, you cannot protect them, unless in the eyes of God you want to share all their abomination...


To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews...


Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not, let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew. When you lay eyes on or think of a Jew you must say to yourself: Alas, that mouth which I there behold has cursed and execrated and maligned every Saturday my dear Lord Jesus Christ, who has redeemed me with his precious blood; in addition, it prayed and pleaded before God that I, my wife and children, and all Christians might be stabbed to death and perish miserably. And he himself would gladly do this if he were able, in order to appropriate our goods...


Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune.


I have read and heard many stories about the Jews which agree with this judgment of Christ, namely, how they have poisoned wells, made assassinations, kidnapped children, as related before. I have heard that one Jew sent another Jew, and this by means of a Christian, a pot of blood, together with a barrel of wine, in which when drunk empty, a dead Jew was found. There are many other similar stories. For their kidnapping of children they have often been burned at the stake or banished (as we already heard). I am well aware that they deny all of this. However, it all coincides with the judgment of Christ which declares that they are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil, who sting and work harm stealthily wherever they cannot do it openly. For this reason, I would like to see them where there are no Christians. The Turks and other heathen do not tolerate what we Christians endure from these venomous serpents and young devils...next to the devil, a Christian has no more bitter and galling foe than a Jew. There is no other to whom we accord as many benefactions and from whom we suffer as much as we do from these base children of the devil, this brood of vipers.


Translated by Martin H. Bertram, "On The Jews and Their Lies, Luther's Works, Volume 47"; Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971.


 


Martin Luther - 1543


Of The Unknowable Name and The Generations of Christ


But your [God’s] judgment is right, justus es Dominie. Yes, so shall Jews, but no one else be punished, who held your word and miracles in contempt and ridiculed, insulted and damned it for such a long time without interruption, so that they will not fall, like other humans, heathens and all the others, into sin and death, not up in Hell, nor in the middle of Hell but in the pit of Hell, as one cannot fall deeper...


Even if they were punished in the most gruesome manner that the streets ran with their blood, that their dead would be counted, not in the hundred thousands, but in the millions, as happened under Vespasian in Jerusalem and for evil under Hadrian, still they must insist on being right even if after these 1,500 years they were in misery another 1,500 years, still God must be a liar and they must be correct. In sum, they are the devil’s children, damned to Hell...


The Jews too got what they deserved. They had been called and elected to be God’s mouth as Jeremiah says...Open your mouth wide and I will fill it; they however, kept tightly closed their muzzles, eyes, ears, nose, whole heart and all senses, so he polluted and squirted them so full that it oozes from them in all places and devil’s filth comes from them.


Yes, that tastes good to them, into their hearts, they smack their lips like swine. That is how they want it. Call more: ‘Crucify him, crucify him.’ Scream more: ‘His blood come upon us and our children.’ (Matthew 27:25) I mean it came and found you...


Perhaps, one of the merciful Saints among us Christians may think I am behaving too crude and disdainfully against the poor, miserable Jews in that I deal with them so sarcastically and insulting. But, good God, I am much too mild in insulting such devils…


 


John Calvin


A Response To Questions and Objections of a Certain Jew


Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.


Excerpt from "Ad Quaelstiones et Objecta Juaei Cuiusdam Responsio," by John Calvin; The Jew in Christian Theology, Gerhard Falk, McFarland and Company, Inc., Jefferson, NC and London, 1931.



***Notes***

Quote Taken from http://www.yashanet.com/library/fathers.htm

"Our Hands Are Stained With Blood" Dr. Michael Brown (This book was endorsed by Leonard Ravinhill see back cover)


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/7 8:30Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
How much more heritical can a teaching be than to say that God has rejected a people that His word clearly says the opposite- and then try to dance out of the topic and spin it around until the word is made to say the opposite of what is said (i.e. Romans 11:1). Has God cast away His people?


Hi Robert
This is a straw man, set up to be knocked down. I hope you are not suggesting that this is my position.

Instead of endless lists of Christendom's atrocities why don't you tell me whether or not you believe with Art that the litmus test of the true church is a particular eschatology and whether or not you agree with him that ruling with Christ is dependent upon whether or not we have 'extended ourselves to the Jew'?

Straightforward question, I think. Time for your straightforward answer.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/7 8:53Profile
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 Re:

I'll answer yours if you'll answer one for me. :-)

I cannot agree with that statement of Art's wholly because some have no opportunity to reach a Jew. I'm not sure I would even be able to tackle the eschatalogical ramifications of such a thought because I am not versed enough in the subject(s) to give a good well reasoned answer. You are more in a position to answer it than I and I believe you have clearly shown a dislike for the theology. Yet I would only say that I am used to hearing Messianic Jews make some pretty strong claims in all kinds of directions. I left off trying to correct when I was in the middle of it all in class. I let them believe and state their position and- proved all things and held fast to that which was good. That's why you read my tractates saying I can't agree with my own Professor's (Ron Moseley and even Marvin Wilson's) position on the Mishnah and Talmud. I don't have to agree with Katz on this subject. i believe that the overall spirit of what he is saying is true when he compells the Gentiles to provoke both Jew and Gentile to Christ through their lives. I could disagree with him on that one topic and keep listening. I used to couldn't- but I am tired of drawing swords over this type of stuff. Same goes with pretrib and all that. We will know soon enough.

My question is simply:-)

Should we not do what we can when we have opportunity to reach the Jews in a way that they will have a legitimate chance to accept or reject their Messiah in our generation understanding that the Church (for whatever reason) in times past has not treated them favorably and that acknowledgments of these things may be necessary?

Ultimately- that is all I am and have been saying.

God Bless!

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/7 10:15Profile
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 Re:

Hi Robert
simple question...

Quote:
Should we not do what we can when we have opportunity to reach the Jews in a way that they will have a legitimate chance to accept or reject their Messiah in our generation understanding that the Church (for whatever reason) in times past has not treated them favorably and that acknowledgments of these things may be necessary?



simply answer... Yes.
more complication/comprehensive answer. I don't think we can burden the latest convert with 2000 years of christendom's guilt. But we should certainly seek their good in every way possible without jeopardizing the good of any other ethnic group.

re Art's position. I was pretty sure you didn't hold it even though you have strong sympathy with his general position. Some 10 years ago Art visited our church here in the UK. He was his usual honest, wysiwyg, self, but he informed a room full of complete strangers that if we didn't establish a specific Jewish evangelism in the church God would close us down. This is perfectly compatible with his views posted here by Lars. WE could not be a 'true church' without this litmus test. I don't know anyone else who is this extreme and I think it should be bourne in mind by those who read/listen to his ministry.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/7 10:30Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I don't think we can burden the latest convert with 2000 years of christendom's guilt.



Amen.

Quote:
I don't know anyone else who is this extreme and I think it should be bourne in mind by those who read/listen to his ministry.



I have heard some rather radical positions that paint the Church in an almost pagan light- to the point to where in some contexts I would not tell someone I had a Christmas tree in my house. Some of the points are legit- others are out there a bit. i have gotten a bit red-faced a time or two, but overall I was in agreement with the basic emphasis of trying to reach the Jews for Christ. I've seen men storm out of classes and all kinds of crazy stuff. Sort of like in acts when it says and there was not small dispute. :-)

I think it's merely a tactic to try to balance the scales. Sometimes things are way out of balance and then we see extremes trying to make a correcting and we overcorrect. Thats how accidents happen. I hope I have tried to be balanced in a way that would please the Lord.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/7 10:58Profile





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