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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?

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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707



Only if one believes that he has birthed himself into the Kingdom of God, and makes himself a pure and chaste virgin Bride for her Husband.

My earthly father did not confer with me when I was conceived. My heavenly Father conceived me in His wisdom and in Christ before the foundation of the world. His choice and Grace and Wisdom. He did not ask me or want my permission to birth His Son in me. Thus, "Born Again" by Spirit and Water, The Water of Life and the Spirit of Christ has by the Father's Seed birthed me again in the Spirit or else I am none of His. There are none that are His that depend on their own works to abort themselves or else rebirth themselves. God does not abort any of His birthed sons'.

Galatians 1:3-5 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ephesians 1:3-9 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Ga 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I choose it, I loose it; Yes.

God chooses and none are lost.


"Loose Salvation"? NO!!!

Sin and be disciplined? Yes!!! Praise God.

Ps 118:18 The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death.

1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

2Co 6:9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;

Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His Holiness.

In Christ: Chastened but never lost: Phillip


 2009/7/8 16:56Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707


Who, Then, is a Christian?
By Warren Litzman

Defining Christianity is not an easy task these days. It has become so polluted with false doctrine and anti-biblical truth that anybody with anything on their mind religious uses the name. What is most critical about this is the world and even people in Christian churches do not know what Christianity is. To make it very simple, my definition is that Christianity is Christ. Nothing else - nothing else added to it and nothing else needed - just Christ. However, Christians without the knowledge that Christ is their life have become promoters and advertisers of their special brand of Christianity, or their denominational rules or their doctrines.

This means there is hardly to be found anywhere a pure or even near pure Scriptural Christianity. The term “Christian” was formed at Antioch by Paul and Barnabas when they were teaching there (Acts 11:26). There are many that teach the early Pentecostal church was a truly Christian church. But this is not so. The early church was a kingdom church (Joel 2:28, Acts 2:16) that had never heard the full gospel of grace and had never come into Paul’s gospel of Christ in you. It is my conclusion that no one can be Biblical Christians without a revelation of Christ as his life (Gal. 2:20).

1) Christianity is not just about the historical Christ. The historical record in the four gospels tell you all about Him and there are thousands of historical books that tell about Him. It is only when you get into Paul’s Epistles that He - Christ - ever becomes the life of the believer. A Christian is one in whom Christ lives. It is not that Christ gives something to the believer, but rather Christ is the life of the believer and His only life to the Father that birthed him.

2) Christianity is 4th dimensional. It is a mystery (Col. 1:26-27). It is the birthing of a new creation - a person that has never lived before - a person that will never die - because he has eternal life - Christ-life - in him.

3) Christianity demands nothing from an adherent other than to believe on Jesus Christ as his Savior. The denomination, the church doctrines and the religious programs can add nothing to salvation. Therefore, to put it bluntly, Baptist are not Christians. Methodist are not Christians. Pentecostals are not Christians. Catholics are not Christians. But because of the personal work of the Holy Spirit in a believer’s life, some Christians are Baptist, some Christians are Methodist, some Christians are Pentecostal and some Christians are Catholic. When Christianity becomes a tool of some group to promote their doctrine and ignore Paul’s message of grace then they are not Christians.

4) Christianity demands that a believer be willing to give up his old life (Rom. 6:6) and cease to serve sin. This is the message and essence of the cross and Christianity without the cross is life-less and Christ-less (II Cor. 2:2). Christianity is not our works for the Lord but rather His work in us and through us.

Christ-life Fellowship
PO Box 170307 Dallas, TX 75217-0307 USA

In Christ, alive unto God by The Son in me.



 2009/7/9 23:29Profile

 Re: Jesus' Obedience

It is true that these threads can end up becoming frivolous and petty, but it usually is not the content that is the problem but the method and quality of discussion.

Jesus' obedience to he great law of ,, Loving the Lord His God with all His heart and all His soul and all His strength , was done ,and perfectly done by Jesus for the Good of God and the whole universe , but this obedience never ,ever , ever , becomes our obedience

What i am saying is that Jesus' obedience , is never accounted to us as our obedience, Both us and Jesus had to obey God for ourselves


If this is your doctrine, than you have no Gospel. You have no Good News all you have is law and law only brings wrath.

If we are to rely upon our own obedience in order to be righteous before an Holy God, then we do not know the depth of our sin.

What is imputation then?

How was Christ counted guilty for sins He did not commit?


 2009/7/10 10:11


"There is absolutely nothing that God accepts as virtue except obedience to His moral law." clintstone

Can you explain this phrase more fully?? What is your definition of virtue?? What about faith in Christ?? Is this not also an aspect of virtue?

This is what I take from Scripture:

Romans 3

No One is Righteous

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[b]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:

"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.

12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[c]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d]
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[h]

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

20...THEREFORE NO ONE IN HIS SIGHT WILL BE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY FOLLOWING THE LAW.... rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Righteousness Through Faith

21...BUT NOW A RIGHTEOUSNESS FROM GOD, APART FROM THE LAW,.... has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.


23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? ......... ON OBSERVING THE LAW? NO, BUT ON THAT OF FAITH.......


It seems to me that if a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law, then his obedience in moving forward is not an act for justification in front of God, but because we now have a relationship that promotes obedience in our love for God and not acts to obtain salvation.

Christ was the righteousness apart from the law because He fulfilled it, it is in Him that we can see the Kingdom of God (I AM THE WAY...I AM THE TRUTH.. I AM THE LIFE), not in our perfect acts but in a person, Jesus. What Christ did on the cross justifies us unto salvation and it is through faith in Him that this is possible. The promise of the Holy Spirit comes by faith. This is why Paul said that we do not boast of ourselves that we are our own justification in our own righteousness... obedience is virtuous but it is clearly not a self-justification. My obedience is wrapped up my loving relationship with Christ who lives in me, not because I think obedience, in and of itself, is 'exclusively' my way to eternal life. I cannot stand before God without Christ in me no matter how perfectly I may observe the law.

 2009/7/10 10:48

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707


1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

It is not by philosophy; not from ourselves; but by his mercy. The apostle keeps it prominently in view, that it was not of our philosophy, wealth, or rank, or works, that they had been raised to these privileges, but of God as the author.
Are ye. Ye are what you are by the mercy of God, 1Co 15:10. You owe your hopes to him. The emphasis in this verse is to be placed on this expression, "are ye." You are Christians, not by the agency of man, but by the agency of God.

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

It is a mystery that God has revealed His Son in us and that is our only holiness before the Father, this is our perfection, Christ in you. Nothing else.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ: I stand perfect before the Father:



 2009/7/10 11:59Profile

Joined: 2006/1/6
Posts: 113

 Re: False Doctrine

Jesus told us the reason we develop false doctrine?

In Mark 12:24 it reads:

And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Here Jesus tells the Sadducees (who were famous for their false doctrine about the resurrection) what has led them to their wrong interpretation of Scripture:

1.) They don't know the Scriptures.
a. Too often we don't spend time submitted to the Spirit of God and the authority of our Savior to have Him expound the Scriptures for us. Instead we seek them to win arguments, and prove our points, and to justify our sinful lives. Very similar we see this spirit in religious men who persecuted God's prophets, Christ and today's Church.

2.) They don't know the power of God.
a. Like Abraham we are called to believe that the things God says of Himself and His Kingdom to be true. He doesn't ask us what we think or for our counsel. He just tells us to believe. Those that believe what the Lord says of Himself will see the power of God manifest itself on Earth, begining and ending with the miraculous power of Salvation.

These are two simple principles that cultivate sound doctrine.

God Bless,

Desi, Jr.

 2009/7/10 14:25Profile

Joined: 2009/7/10
Posts: 1


I choose it, I loose it; Yes.

God chooses and none are lost.


"Loose Salvation"? NO!!!

Sin and be disciplined? Yes!!! Praise God.

Great quote from "Christinyou"

We as humans can't comprehend NOT being sent to hell for doing bad things. Thank God I was not saved by a human, but by the very God of Creation and Glory.
My own son can disobey me, leave home, live a life completely different than what I taught him, but it never takes away the fact that he is my son. He can even have his name changed after being born, but he is still my Blood son. Now he would miss out on all the things that I bless his sister with, but never the less, he is still my son. And if he were of age, you can believe I would chastise him. God knew we were going to sin when He saved us, yet He sent His Own Son in spite of it. And chastisement comes when we disobey Him. Upon my death, my daughter would receive more rewards from inheritance, but legally, my wayward son would also be eligible to a portion too.
Yes we must fear God, for it is an awful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God (chastisement). But Fear of Hell, Cannot be our motive for service, it has to be Love, and appreciation for the Eternal Life He gave us.
I would find it hard to go thru this life trying to serve a God who would throw me into a hell prepared for the devil and his angels if I, in my humanity, were to fail at keeping a law I could never keep to begin with.

 2009/7/10 21:44Profile

Joined: 2009/2/10
Posts: 97



int3grity wrote:


No. All of the saints persevere in the faith to the end. I'm surprised no one has cited parts from John chapter 6 yet. The following is a brief exposition of John 6 from another thread:

We hold that all true Christians persevere in the faith to the end. IF one does not persevere, then it simply means he never had the faith in the first place.

John 6:37-38,
[b]"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."[/b]

So, everyone who is given to the Son by the Father to be saved "SHALL COME" and of them the Son will "in no wise cast out." PERIOD. What about "jumping out of His hand" as so many assert a Christian can do? Read the next verse:

and the very next verse (39),

[b]"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."[/b]

Here we see that of [b]ALL[/b]which are given to the Son, the Son will "lose nothing" [i]AND[/i] "and I will raise him up at the last day." Notice the definite, [b]"I WILL"[/b] "...raise him up at the last day." This is distinctly Johannine writing style and speaks clearly of eternal life. This is undeniably clear, as in the very next verse (40),

[b]And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/b]


In the very next verses the Jews murmur about these things... (verses 41-43)

"The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves."

Now, Jesus continues teaching... (Verses 43-46)

[b]"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."[/b]

Here we see that "NO MAN [b]CAN[/b] COME TO ME". Can is a word of ability. Notice how Jesus did not say "May", but "CAN". This means that nobody is able to come to Jesus. Why? (Because we (before regeneration, "...were dead in trespasses and sins;" Ephesians 2:1 ) But praise God there is an exception. Jesus then says, "except the Father which hath sent me draw him". So, if we are drawn by the Father, we can come to Jesus. And then Jesus says, "and I will raise him up at the last day." SO, all who are drawn, therefore, are raised up at the last day to eternal life. And Jesus says it again another way, "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." [i]CRYSTAL CLEAR.[/i]

[u]In reverse summary, 1. All whom the Father draws are raised up to eternal life at the last day. 2. No one can come to Jesus without being drawn by the Father. 3. Being raised up at the last day clearly speaks of eternal life. 4. All whom the Father gives to Jesus are raised up at the last day to eternal life and Jesus will "lose nothing" so one can neither be snatched (or jump!) out of his hand. 5. Everyone given by the Father to Jesus "SHALL COME" to Jesus. 6. Jesus promises "I will in no wise cast out." to those who come to Him.[/u]

Finally, please read the last words of the chapter as a final confirmation of these truths,

"But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve."

God bless you.
Adam Schaefers


 2009/7/11 2:45Profile

Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 76


'Tis a point I long to know,
Oft it causes anxious thought;
Do I love the Lord or no?
Am I His--or am I not?

If I love--why am I thus?
Why this dull and lifeless frame
?Hardly, sure, can they be worse,
Who have never heard His name!

Could my heart so hard remain,
Prayer a task and burden prove,
Every trifle give me pain,
If I knew a Savior's love?

When I turn my eyes within,
All is dark, and vain, and wild;
Filled with unbelief and sin,
Can I deem myself a child?

If I pray, or hear, or read,
Sin is mixed with all I do!
You who love the Lord indeed,
Tell me--Is it thus with you?

Yet I mourn my stubborn will,
Find my sin a grief and thrall;
Should I grieve for what I feel,
If I did not love at all?

Could I joy His saints to meet,
Choose the ways I once abhorred,
Find, at times, the promise sweet,
If I did not love the Lord?

Lord, decide the doubtful case!
You who are Your people's sun,
Shine upon Your work of grace,
If it is indeed begun.

Let me love You more and more,
If I love at all, I pray;
If I have not loved before,
Help me to begin today!


 2009/7/11 3:09Profile

Joined: 2009/2/10
Posts: 97


[b][u]The Westminster Confession of Faith: Chapter 17
Chapter 17. Of the Perseverance of the Saints.[/u]

1. They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.a

a. John 10:28-29; Phil 1:6; 1 Pet 1:5, 9; 2 Pet 1:10; 1 John 3:9.

2. This perseverance of the saints depends, not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;a upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ;b the abiding of the Spirit and of the seed of God within them;c and the nature of the covenant of grace:d from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.e

a. Jer 31:3; 2 Tim 2:18-19. • b. Luke 22:32; John 17:11, 24; Heb 7:25; 9:12-15; 10:10, 14; 13:20-21; Rom 8:33-39. • c. John 14:16-17; 1 John 2:27; 3:9. • d. Jer 32:40. • e. John 10:28; 2 Thes 3:3; 1 John 2:19.

3. Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;a and for a time continue therein:b whereby they incur God's displeasure,c and grieve his Holy Spirit;d come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts;e have their hearts hardened,f and their consciences wounded;g hurt and scandalize others,h and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.i

a. Mat 26:70, 72, 74. • b. Psa 51 title with v. 14. • c. 2 Sam 11:27; Isa 64:5, 7, 9. • d. Eph 4:30. • e. Psa 51:8, 10, 12; Song 5:2-4, 6; Rev 2:4. • f. Isa 63:17; Mark 6:52; 16:14. • g. Psa 32:3-4; 51:8. • h. 2 Sam 12:14. • i. Psa 89:31-32; 1 Cor 11:32.[/b]


 2009/7/11 3:11Profile

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