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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOOSE SALVATION and END UP IN HELL?

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 Re:

My question was specifically directed toward brothertom's teaching that sin can nullify the righteous standing of a truly regenerate/born-again individual.

This is what the Roman Catholic church teaches. They teach that a person loses their justification each time they sin and regain that justification through repentence and confession.

Now we are not talking about false converts here. We are not talking about goats and wolves in sheep's clothing.

We are talking about truly born-again, raised from the dead believers, brought to life by the Spirit of God, free from the condemnation of the law because they are in Christ who already bore the Wrath of God (...looked upon the suffering of His soul and he was satisfied) and paid the just penalty for sin. We are talking about these people losing their righteous standing before God.

Now I agree with you that truly born-again believers will continue believing the Gospel. Absolutely. I completely agree that those who believe on the Son continue believing on the Son; like Paul they desire to be found "in Him" not having their own righteousness, but a righteousness that is by faith in the Son of God.

Quote:
So we are justified by faith...




Ok, but what does that mean? That has real meaning. What does it mean to be justified? When an individual truly believes on the Lord Jesus Christ then according to the scripture, he/ she is justified....but what does that mean.

It means that individual is declared Righteous by a Holy God based upon the life, death and resurection of Jesus Christ. That justification (an ungodly individual being declared righteous) is not based upon anything he/ she has done or will do. It is based upon the work of another.

The death of Christ paid the just penalty for sin and covers the sin of that individual.

The obedience of Christ is put to the account of that individual and they stand clothed in the perfect righteousness of another, holy and just before God.

This is justification.

I have no problem with all of the warnings in the bible because all they will do for a truly born-again individual is cause them to cling more and more to Christ. Faith is a position of weakness.


 2009/7/5 13:42
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:
My question was specifically directed toward brothertom's teaching that sin can nullify the righteous standing of a truly regenerate/born-again individual.



I dont believe one sin is enough, just as one righteous act will not make some one righteous.
Quote:
We are talking about truly born-again, raised from the dead believers, brought to life by the Spirit of God, free from the condemnation of the law because they are in Christ who already bore the Wrath of God (...looked upon the suffering of His soul and he was satisfied) and paid the just penalty for sin. We are talking about these people losing their righteous standing before God.



yes, these where the people Paul wrote his letter to, giving them a warning that the Israelites had drinken from the spiritual rock wich was Christ, they had received from Christ, eaten and drinken from HIM, they where not false converts, they had part in Christ, yet did not reach the destination God had chosen for them. He uses this example for a reason and to me i think it is possible once to stand right in Gods eyes and in the end stepped outside that place to where we are not right. I leave room for that possibility and see it in scripture.

Quote:
The death of Christ paid the just penalty for sin and covers the sin of that individual.



yes this is true, but if a truly born again beliver choses to depart from the faith due to he want the world or sin more? please himself rather then God? i dont believe this happends without God chastens us and by his grace and goodness offers multitudes of opportunities for repentance, but since love is a free choice, and if God would justify me without me wanting him to, or if he want to keep me when i dont want to be kept, that could not be love, that would contradict Gods very essence of who he is and would be a violation of his character.

Quote:
I have no problem with all of the warnings in the bible because all they will do for a truly born-again individual is cause them to cling more and more to Christ. Faith is a position of weakness.



i agree, but if the warnings do not really warn from a real danger why even write and warn someone when they are in no real danger anyway? it does not seem logical? and if we never ever under any circumstances or reasons can be in any danger, i think every letter maybe except phillipians and colossians are just a waste of paper, since it does not really matter wheter you read and take heed to the warnings since they can not effect your eternity anyway.

I know these are broad strokes, but this is what i see :-) we see it differently but it is ok, i have not figured out when and exactly how someone can lose their salvation, but i am completely sure it can take place and leaves room for such a possibility.


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/7/5 14:02Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I dont believe one sin is enough, just as one righteous act will not make some one righteous.



One sin condemned the entire human race.

You are right, one righteous act will not make anyone righteous...500 righteous acts cannot make a person righteous, only faith in Christ.

 2009/7/5 14:28
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

Mahoney wrote:
Quote:
I dont believe one sin is enough, just as one righteous act will not make some one righteous.



One sin condemned the entire human race.

You are right, one righteous act will not make anyone righteous...500 righteous acts cannot make a person righteous, only faith in Christ.



amen, i just wanted to show the utter stupidity to think one sin will cast someone out from heaven.


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/7/5 14:36Profile
PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I have not figured out when and exactly how someone can lose their salvation


Although the Word of God seems to substantiate this, I really have no idea when or how it happens. We can agree that regeneration is an act of God whereby divine life is respirated into a man and his spirit becomes "quickened". For the opposite to be true (the [i]aspiration[/i] of divine life), it must also be work of God.

The question arises now as to when this happens; how many sins must be committed before God irretrievably withdraws and consigns the once-regenerated believer back to eternal damnation? The Word isn't clear on this. But the warning seems to be there - as befuddling as it may be as to how it actually occurs. When Jesus assured the thief that he would be in paradise, was there a remote chance that a roque, sinful thought might disqualify him from the promise before he died?

Since it is the Spirit of God that ever spurs us onward to repentance from dead works and desiring to do the Father's will - even if we are sorely and frequently missing the mark - it would have to be the effects of the absence of the Spirit that relegates a person back into the depths of nondesire for the things of God.

More thoughts to come - wife and son are calling.


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Paul Frederick West

 2009/7/5 16:15Profile
Danman
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Joined: 2009/7/5
Posts: 5


 Re:

I know I'm new here but after reading your post I couldn't help but reply. Especially on "the stupidity to think one sin will cast someone out from heaven".

Please let us reason together! How many sins did the devil and his angels need? How many sins did it take Adam and Eve? How many sins would it have taken our Lord? How much sin is in heaven? This is not a hard thing to understand. One unrepentant sin, is enough. Let's just take one specific unrepentant sin. Unforgiveness- The Lord said if you don't forgive others neither will my Father forgive you. The key is repentance (or unrepentance) not the amount of sin or sins you commit. But I would venture to say that if you are living a daily sin and repent type of Christianity then at worst you aren't even saved, and at best are completely ignorant of the power we have in Christ to live Holy lives, through the Holy Spirit.

 2009/7/5 17:47Profile
rainydaygirl
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Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742


 Re:

Danman wrote-But I would venture to say that if you are living a daily sin and repent type of Christianity then at worst you aren't even saved,and at best are completely ignorant of the power we have in Christ to live Holy lives, through the Holy Spirit.

___

Question about what you shared above? Doesn't the Lord open our eyes and hearts to sin in our life so that we might repent? Doesn't He open our eyes to sin that we ourselves may not even be aware of until He shows us? There are times when I find myself very often seeking Gods face and asking forgiveness for sin that just a day or even a few hours ago I was not aware of. There have been times when I stumble and might loose my temper, I may speak harshly toward my husband and the Holy Spirit quickens to my heart that I am in sin, so I repent. Not sure I understand what you wrote above?
rdg

 2009/7/5 19:19Profile
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3394
East TN (for now)

 Re: CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOSE SALVATION - 1

Quote:
rainydaygirl wrote:
Question about what you shared above? Doesn't the Lord open our eyes and hearts to sin in our life so that we might repent? Doesn't He open our eyes to sin that we ourselves may not even be aware of until He shows us? There are times when I find myself very often seeking Gods face and asking forgiveness for sin that just a day or even a few hours ago I was not aware of. There have been times when I stumble and might loose my temper, I may speak harshly toward my husband and the Holy Spirit quickens to my heart that I am in sin, so I repent. Not sure I understand what you wrote above?
rdg


I cannot answer for danman but I was thinking to myself after reading your questions that it's not you that he is speaking about. if I may...

[i]Doesn't the Lord open our eyes and hearts to sin in our life so that we might repent?[/i]

Yes, He does but it is up to us if we really want to obey that leading to repent or not; or do we want to pet that sin in our life a little bit longer? (Do we want to think about that tomorrow, like Scarlet?)

[i]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;[/i]
Romans 1.18

Notice it says, "[b]who hold the truth in unrighteousness[/b]." They have the truth and hold it "IN" unrighteousness.

[i]Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful;[/i]
Romans 1.21a

People can try to explain this away but it says as plain as my eyes see it, "[b]when they knew God[/b], they glorified him not as God." They knew God but they decided somewhere along the line to not glorify Him and begin to take it for themselves. I don't think this is a one time thing, it is a habitual non-glorifying of God.

Again, this doesn't sound like you at all, not from your posts.

God bless you!!


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Lisa

 2009/7/5 21:33Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3394
East TN (for now)

 Re: CAN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS LOSE SALVATION 2

Quote:
rainydaygirl wrote:
There have been times when I stumble and might loose my temper, I may speak harshly toward my husband and the Holy Spirit quickens to my heart that I am in sin, so I repent.


We have to remove ourselves out of the equation in order to understand what I think he is trying to say. You obviously are quick to repent and [b]want[/b] to be holy. so what he said doesn't apply to you!!

I do not know how many unrepentant sins God will put up with. I believe that He will put up with none in heaven but here on earth, how long He lets us live continuing in our sins is entirely up to Him... while He tries to reign us in that we might be like Christ but I do believe that there is a point where we turn a blind eye to Him and what He is trying to do in us.

I believe this is represented by the following verses.....

[i]/They perish/ because they did not receive the love of the truth in order to be saved.
For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false, so that all will be condemned––those who did not believe the truth but enjoyed unrighteousness.[/i]
2 Thess 2.10-12 HCSB

I do NOT believe that this verse is reserved for the unsaved because it says the love of the truth came to them but they didn't [b]"receive"[/b] it.

It also doesn't say how many times God sent the love of the truth about something nor does it say HOW many truths [b]about ourselves[/b] He sent before we stop hearing and He sends us a strong delusion.

I don't believe that God sends the ALL encompassing truth to us and like a computer we download it! I believe He sends us what we can handle but it's up to us to believe Him and in the work that wants to do in us. Only believe.

[i]For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.[/i]
Hebrews 4.3

I hope this makes sense and please know that I don't believe that I have all knowledge on this subject (I know I don't!); this is just how I understand it according to the question you asked. I hope it helps but if it doesn't, toss it out!


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Lisa

 2009/7/5 21:35Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3233
Texas

 Re:

I know there is millions of opinions on this but this is my opinion. If salvation can be lost, this requires a reversal of regeneration. This means the born again must become unborn again. And if they subsequently repent, then they must become born again again. Can a man also be born again again again? Where does it end? Is regeneration really so transient?
If salvation can be lost, "eternal life" cannot be eternal life. It could only be temporary hope for eternal life that couldn't become eternal life until after we die. As long as we're still here, how can we call "eternal" what can be lost? Scripture says believers currently have eternal life, not that we might eventually have eternal life. It says that the life we have is eternal, not possibly or potentially eternal (or "to be determined" by whether we manage to keep or lose it). It says we can know that we have eternal life (1 John 5:13). How can we know that if our salvation isn't secure?
If we can lose our salvation, we can also keep it—by abstaining from whatever it takes to lose it. This makes it at least partially dependent on our merits. This flies in the face of Scripture's teaching that salvation is a miraculous work of God, dependent on Him, not us.


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Mr. Bill

 2009/7/5 23:30Profile





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