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The majority of the speakers available on this site and my personal conviction as well as most members of SI is that Jesus died on the cross for sins, and sins alone. Not the effects of sin, ie poverty or sickness.



I'm not going to get into a discussion about health and prosperity with you , you lack knowledge on the subject, I leanred that the hard way. But I will say, you need to look at your statement. If you claim Jesus did not die for the effects of sin, then you say that you will die. Because death is an effect of sin. But I know that I have everlasting life.

Also, sin leads to damnation in Hell. So if Christ didn't die for the effects of sin, then you are saying that someone who is saved can still enter into Hell.

That doesn't make sense to say Christ died for my sin, but not the effects of it. It makes the preaching of the cross nothing. Sin isn't the only thing that had to go. The effects go with it. If I have no sin, I have no disease, if I have no sin, I have no poverty. The ONLY reason we EVER had sickness and poverty and sin was because of the fall of man in the Garden.

 2004/9/7 17:13
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So if you say that he never suffered, and you already claim that Jesus died ONLY for your sins, then you are in fact saying, sin still has a hold of you, because Christ never fully took that away.


Your reasoning makes no sense? And you are quoting words from my mouth that don't exist. I have stated clearly that Jesus died for SIN and to clarify that ALL SIN the sin of all the individuals of the world past, present and future. Yes Christ HAS fully tooken away sin and I am not under the curse of sin because I have died with Christ and through grace have become an heir of God, not having my sins accounted against me.

[b]Psalm 32:1-2[/b] - Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Quote:
The only way he could conquer death hell and the grave was to go to all three of those. The only way he could ever remove the bondage of sin from our lives, was to pay the penalty of sin. And who denies that the penalty of sin is death and hell?


Could you show from scripture exactly how you get this idea? If you take away SIN then you dont have the consquences of SIN. God didn't take away death and hell, they still exist, but he has conquered them by taking SIN upon Himself.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/9/7 17:18Profile
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I'm not going to get into a discussion about health and prosperity with you , you lack knowledge on the subject, I leanred that the hard way. But I will say, you need to look at your statement. If you claim Jesus did not die for the effects of sin, then you say that you will die. Because death is an effect of sin. But I know that I have everlasting life.


I thought you can to the point of realizing its not fruitful to discuss these things in this community. Is there a certain reason why you want to re-intiate these things? I am very sorry that you firmly believe in these things, I have an evangelical and puritan library of 3000 books from men of God who through suffering and much anguish of soul served God in such a way that puts us contemprary followers of Christ to shame. There cloud of witness is overwhelming to me when I ponder on it.. and its interesting that they all had a proper concept of the cross, poverity, sickness, they the majority of them had to endure all of these in a way that would seem overwhelming to us in our day. Also all of the abit more contemprary speakers on this site in the downloads section followed the example of these men. Brother you are here to tell me against all these men of God and two thousand years of church history of suffering, pain, and death that they ALL never came to a full realization of the atonement and therefore your knoweldge and experience in God is more weighty and supercedes them ALL? I CANNOT EXCEPT THAT!

Brother come and let us reason together.. do not believe every wind of doctrine but test and approve these things. Look back to the spiritual fathers of our faith.. who have suffered much.. we are part of the fellowship of sufferings. Oh how I wish for you to know these things.

Quote:
Also, sin leads to damnation in Hell. So if Christ didn't die for the effects of sin, then you are saying that someone who is saved can still enter into Hell.


Jesus was an atonment, he wasnt the questionable party. He replaced the lamb on the altar.. who was dying for the one in trespass. You must not confuse pauline theology at this point. Indeficiation with Christ is a totally different spiritual experience then Christ's atonement in my estimation.

Us (sin) -- sacrifice for sin, lamb (Jesus) -- Holy God (no sin)

Jesus died to open the way up to God.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/9/7 17:30Profile









 Re:

Well from what I read, you said that Jesus died for your Sins, not the consequences of sin.

That means that you are saying that even though Christ went upon the cross, Saints can still go to hell. And they have to taste death, because Jesus didn't bother taking away the consequences of sin.

Go back and read the story of the fall of Man. And tell me how that isn't the moment that sin came into this world. And along with the sin came what? Death, sickness, poverty, lack, want, all those things and more came along with sin.

You can't take away the sin, without taking away all of those. Its abusrd and shows a lack of knowledge to claim that Jesus did not take away all those things. To say he never suffered for me in Hell, means he never actually bothered to pay the penalty of sin. He took it all, God didn't put SOME handwritting of ordinaces on the cross. He put EVERY handwritting of ordinance that was against us up on that cross with Jesus.

Your claims that we still have to suffer the consequences of sin, its just plain absurd. You have taken the cross and turned it into just a place where he died. Not a place where he began his redemptive work.

Sickness, and hell and poverty, all those things still exist. God didn't take them away, you can still go to hell if you dont believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

But according to your comments that Christ didn't die for those consequences, you are saying Christ didn't die to keep you from having to be tormented in Hell.


You asked me to show you scriptures, well I dont think I can post the entire Bible in a post. I'm sure there is some sort of character limit. But let me just assure you, Jesus Christ died so that I do not have to be bondage to sin, and therefore, I dont have to die, I have eternal life. I dont have to sin, I can through the spirit mortify the deeds of the body.


 2004/9/7 17:35









 Re:

Quote:
Brother you are here to tell me against all these men of God and two thousand years of church history of suffering, pain, and death that they ALL never came to a full realization of the atonement and therefore your knoweldge and experience in God is more weighty and supercedes them ALL? I CANNOT EXCEPT THAT!



Yes I can tell you that they never came to a full realiziation of God. I can tell you that they were totally ignorant when it came to many things int he Bible. I can tell you that they never understood most of everything in the Word of God.

And here is why I can tell you that.. because you among many others today like to sit and say well I can answer your question brother.. its like this.. Tozer said.. or Daniels said...

Let me tell you something, it doesn't matter one hill of beans what Tozer or Daniels or any other scriptual ignorant man said.

You like to talk about your 3000 books you have. Thats wonderful for you. But let me tell you that I have the Word of Almighty God and it outshines any one of thsoe others books you have.

Its time you stop quoting those nuts, if you want to actually be your own man someday, Quote the scriptures.

So yes, if any man you listen to says that Healing and prosperity and sin isn't in the atonement. I can most assuredly tell you that he is ignorant in that area. I know more than he does, because I've taken the time to read it.

The problem is, you get these guys who read about Faith in the Bible, and they get sick, and dont want to keep steady and pray through it, and so they just give up, call God a liar, and say that there is no healing.

They dont want to ever admit how weak they are, and how little knowledge they have. They would rather spend their time saying that guys like me are 'false teachers' and spend all their money on bashing me, instead of just quoting scripture.

And why is this? Its because they have no scriptures in their heart. They have no scripture anywhere that says God kills steals and destroys.

So before you try to jump all over me, and act as if those guys you listen to are smarter than I am when it comes to this topic, you might want to actually take the time, to blow the dust off your Bible and bring scriptures at me. I am sick and tired of hearing about crazy men like tozer

 2004/9/7 17:44
philologos
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 Re:

Quote:
So if sin leads to hell, which in turn means suffering, Jesus had to go through the suffering as well. Because he bore my sin for me.


HI Mitch
I'm not going to pursue the 'sickness and health'thread. Others are doing that. I want to make the point that it was on the cross that all the suffering was accomplished. It was on the cross that He cried it is finished and dismissed His spirit. It is old error resurrected by unthinking folk in the 20th Century that Christ secured some kind of victory in hell. It is sheer superstition; faith without revelation. It is vital to bible Christianity to understand that the cross 'finished' all that could ever be necessary to accomplish our salvation.

The resurrection was the proof that the sacrifice/suffering had accomplished its object, but it was the cross where 'justice divine was satisfied'.
If by 'hell' you mean separation from God and its consequences, then I agree with you. But that 'hell' was on the cross not during the 3 days that followed.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/7 17:50Profile
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 Re:

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So before you try to jump all over me, and act as if those guys you listen to are smarter than I am when it comes to this topic, you might want to actually take the time, to blow the dust off your Bible and bring scriptures at me. I am sick and tired of hearing about crazy men like tozer


You have clearly shown your ignorance and unreceptive spirit to accepting truth by maligning the witness of many saints who were much closer to God then you. Why should I give your words the time of day.. what makes your words different then theirs? We are hearing a gospel according to Mitch and though you confess its the truth, so did others before you whose witness was confirmed in the Holy Ghost throughout the ages. Your new doctrine that you believe and has been started by very dubious characters is wrong, its not of truth though it has a sound of truth. I say this honestly and forthrightly you must know that you are in clear error and you must seek God in prayer over these things and not be ignorant of men from the past.

Please take this as from a Chrisitan who cares for you and for everyone to come into the fulness of truth and bear much fruit for God. I would emplore you to read the bible yourself afresh with the help of the Holy Ghost apart from your books and teachers that you adhere to.

Did you believe these things before you sat under mens teachings such as hagin, etc?


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 2004/9/7 17:58Profile
ZekeO
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 Re:

The 'others' march on:
Based on your reasoning these scriptures for your perusal.

They called the apostles in and [b]had them flogged.[/b] Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
41The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name. Acts 5:40

[b]While they were stoning him[/b], Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:59,60

He had James, the brother of John, [b]put to death with the sword.[/b] Acts 12:2

The crowd joined in the attack against Paul and Silas, and the magistrates ordered them to be stripped and beaten. 23[b]After they had been severely flogged[/b], they were thrown into prison,
Acts 16:22,23

My point is that in the light of your reasoning, these men suffered. Paul suffered. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 2 Cor 11:23-27

There are many scriptures that say that he will guard a righteous man, no evil shall befall him etc. The Psalms are full of it, but look what happened to these men. Some lost their lives, were they out of the will of God? I don't think so. God promised us three score years and ten so does that mean because he promised it, and I am able to receive it that it is automatic? No, on the basis of what happened here. Stephen I presume was a young man when he was killed, do you think that he was putting the lord his God to the test? No, certainly wasn't. Was it Gods will to take him, seems like it. But I thought that it was Gods will to give us a full happy life?

This brings me to the crux of the matter, for as many scriptures there are that tell me that God is for me, there are those that tell me that it was the Lords will to crush him and cause him to suffer. Isaiah 53:10 Remember God is making us like his son Rom 8:29

I hope this scriptures are what you are looking for.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/9/7 18:24Profile









 Re:

I"m not going to fight with you about who is closer to God. But I can tell you, whoever says Health and wealth is not biblical, failed to read some of what Jesus' said, and they certainly never read Deuteronemy 28. And its funny you call it 'my new doctrine' seeing as how Paul himself preached it, its pretty old brother.

 2004/9/7 18:37
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[b]Hebrews 11:32-38[/b] - And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions. Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.


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 2004/9/7 18:58Profile





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