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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
When I get the chance I am not going to say 'greeting Apostle Paul', I'm going to give him a great bear hug and say 'thank you, beloved brother'.


That wasn't what I asked even though that might be a good personal perference, does the scriptures or the early church use the word "apostle" as a title for some people at some times and scenario's. I would say [b]yes[/b] because the bible says so. Certaintly you are correct that its not a rule of thumb and not used often therefore our personal preference as George Fox maintained was to treat all men partial without preference.

But I would ask also were the 'saints' that treated the 'Apostle' Paul like an angel showing personal preference to him over others? YES what that sinful or wrong? NO because I would feel inclined to pluck out my eyes for Paul but not for Ron even though I love Ron dearly speaks something to the esteem and authority spiritually given to the 'Apostle' Paul. As Paul said you don't have many fathers in the faith.

If I am rambling too much here (blames Mike) then let me know. I am agreeing with you here much Ron, and have learned alot but I think I will need more convincing if you will persuade me too call all saints (brother and sisters) and thats it.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/9/2 10:57Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
That wasn't what I asked even though that might be a good personal perference, does the scriptures or the early church use the word "apostle" as a title for some people at some times and scenario's.

I want to be sure we are not talking past each other here. Can you give me a quotation where the word 'apostle' is used as a title in the manner of 'president Bush'


Quote:
But I would ask also were the 'saints' that treated the 'Apostle' Paul like an angel showing personal preference to him over others? YES what that sinful or wrong? NO because I would feel inclined to pluck out my eyes for Paul but not for Ron even though I love Ron dearly speaks something to the esteem and authority spiritually given to the 'Apostle' Paul. As Paul said you don't have many fathers in the faith.

Surely this was not because they esteemed his spiritual authority but because they loved him. I know people for whom I would give my eyes who have no spiritual status.

Did you get to read this weeks Abraham, My Friend? They loved this man. He had poured out his life for them and now he was reaping what he had sown.
And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him, Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him unto the ship.(Act 20:37-38 KJV)

Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.(Act 21:13 KJV)

This kind of behaviour was not caused by their esteem for Paul or for the spiritual authority given to him, it was because they loved him.
...our be-love-d brother Paul.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/2 11:26Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
I want to be sure we are not talking past each other here. Can you give me a quotation where the word 'apostle' is used as a title in the manner of 'president Bush'


As in my post on the first page of this thread with all the scriptures: "Paul, an Apostle"

ie George Bush, president of the United States.

Quote:
This kind of behaviour was not caused by their esteem for Paul or for the spiritual authority given to him, it was because they loved him.


I shall puruse this installment of 'Abraham, My Friend' thank you for the correction you are right it is a matter of love. But wouldn't his status of 'apostle' play into that at all? and the other brothers who saw the Lord in the flesh wouldn't they be admired beyond porportion for that fact possibly?


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/9/2 11:39Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
As in my post on the first page of this thread with all the scriptures: "Paul, an Apostle"


All the salutations from the beginning of the epistles are the equivalent to our letter endings. As these documents were originally scrolls it was the normal pattern to place them at the beginning, otherwise the reader would have had to unroll the whole scroll to find out who was writing to him. If you received a letter you would almost certainly turn to the last page to see where it came from. Consequently these are simple self introductions. In the way that you might sign yourself;
Greg Gordon
Webmaster; Sermonindex.

That tells me who you are, but it's not your title. Let's illustrate from the present age. You know those little drop down boxes where you have to choose
Mr
Mrs
Miss
Mss
Dr
...my point is 'Apostle' would never have been in a drop down box, nor evangelist, not prophet, nor shepherd/teacher. They were not titles, nor handles, just explanatory descriptions.

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: (Rom 11:13 KJV) This is our beloved KJV again. See the focus on 'office'.
Here is the ASV
But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry; (Rom 11:13 ASV)
and here is Youngs Literal (even better):
For to you I speak--to the nations--inasmuch as I am indeed an apostle of nations, my ministration I do glorify; (Rom 11:13 YLT)


You may notice too that the ASV and Youngs correctly translate 'an apostle' rather than 'the apostle'. 'The apostle' could conceivably be a specific role like 'the pope' or 'the president' but 'an apostle' leaves the door open to be 'one of many'.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/3 2:38Profile
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 Re:

Great discussion, I like it. I just wanted to add something. Perhaps it's obvious, but anyway...

Concerning all these titles that we are so fond of using in our days, isn't that because we always tend to associate a person with what he is doing?

I mean, if you are introduced to a new person somewhere, you (speaking generally here) always ask: "So, what do you do (for a living)?" In this modern world, to a very large extent, we are what we do. In the Bible, people are often identified as being "the son of". Like "Joshua, son of Nun" and "Caleb, son of Jephunneh". We, on the other hand, have our true identity in Christ and that gives us a new perspective of who we are to each other.

I believe that this tendency to add titles to everything and everyone may have a lot to do with us still thinking in a "worldly" way, if you see what I mean.

Just my thoughts on the subject, make of it what you will. :-)

/Rikard


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Rikard Eriksson

 2004/9/3 3:46Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Concerning all these titles that we are so fond of using in our days, isn't that because we always tend to associate a person with what he is doing?


Hi riki
I think you are right. At one point in my life I was the manager of an 'Executive Job Club'. These were senior management folks, out of work and completely disorientated. Their whole lives had been defined by their job titles and when the job title was lost they had no identity.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/3 6:10Profile
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 Re:

Riki, your post is spot on reference

Quote:
"So, what do you do (for a living)?" In this modern world, to a very large extent, we are what we do.


I think this applies to men.What does anone else think?
Also, how can we overcome these sort of barriers in the church :-)


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derek Eyre

 2004/9/3 12:11Profile
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 Re: Terms for 'Leaders' in the Bible

How about a little tour of terms used to describe God's servants in the Bible?
The New Testament terms all have a slightly derogatory derivation. Here's an example. An under-rower. minister hupEretEs Strongs 5257
# Mt 5:25,26:58 Mr 14:54,65 Lu 1:2,4:20 Joh 7:32,45-46,18:3,12,18
# Joh 18:22,36,19:6 Ac 5:22,26,13:5,26:16 1Co 4:1

ὑπηρέτης
hupēretēs
Thayer Definition:
1) servant
1a) an underrower, subordinate rower
1b) any one who serves with hands: a servant
1b1) in the NT of the officers and attendants of magistrates as - of the officer who executes penalties
1b2) of the attendants of a king, servants, retinue, the soldiers of a king, of the attendant of a synagogue
1b3) of any one ministering or rendering service
1c) any one who aids another in any work
1c1) an assistant
1c2) of the preacher of the gospel

The trireme was a powerful Greek fighting ship. Its specifications are impressive.

* Overall length: 37 metres (121 feet)
* Overall beam: 5.5 metres (18 feet)
* 170 oarsmen in 3 files on each side: top file 31, middle and bottom 27 each
* Oarsmen spaced at 2 cubits (0.888 metres/2 feet 9 inches)
* One man per oar
* Oar length 4.2m (13 feet 8”) and 4.0m (13 feet) - short oars at ends of ship
* Speed: able to cover 184 sea miles at about 7.5 knots without stopping

Note the fact that there were three files of rowers. Rowers were usually slaves and the most expendable were put on the bottom file. In the event of the ship being badly damaged or sinking, these men chained to their oars, were the first to die. They never got any medals or laurel wreaths, they were happy just to survive. They were known as 'under-rowers' - huperEtEs.

It's the word used to describe Paul's career path!! But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister (huperEtEs) and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; (Act 26:16 KJV) Do you still want to be an apostle?

The word came to mean someone who carried the baggage for a man at arms. Those who attended a senior officer to serve him. In the British army this would he would have been a called a 'batman'; the lowest of the low. It's the word used to describe John Mark's role in 'carrying the bags' of Barnabas and Paul.And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister (huperEtEs). (Act 13:5 KJV) Do you still want to be a minister?

Later still it came to refer to someone in a position of delegated authority. So it moved 'up-market'. But never lost its prefix 'uper' meaning 'under'. It was always a man 'under' the authority of another. Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers (huperEtEs) of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. (1Co 4:1 KJV)

And yet I somehow feel that Paul never forgot its origin.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/3 16:02Profile
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 Re:

So what place does this have in the "contemporary" church, where somebody is appointed over an entire congregation, or over a specific ministry within that congregation (e.g. Sunday school director)?


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Jimmy H

 2004/9/3 18:57Profile
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 Re: so what now?

I agree with jim,
where do we go from here?
It seems that we are to live with these titles in the church,even after so many centuries of it being so.
OR NOT...?
:-)


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derek Eyre

 2004/9/3 19:26Profile





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