Poster | Thread |
whyme Member
Joined: 2007/4/3 Posts: 293
| Re: | | Christ commands that you pay a price to those who labor in the word. Look at Luke 10:27 and 1Timothy 5:18. ( the word used in each verse is "wage" which has the meaning of a soldier's pay ) The Apostle Paul took wages from the churches in Macedonia to serve the local church in Corinth which he calls "robbery" because presumably he should have gotten that wage from those he served in Corinth (2Corinthians 11:8) It was his right in the Lord to receive that wage as expressed in his own words in 1 Corinthians 9.
It has always been that the Lord wants His people to support those who labor in the service of Himself and the temple ( in the Old Testament it was the Levites and the physical temple ); in the New Testament it is the for the support of the temple of the Lord ( the church body ) and especially of those teaching elders who minister to the body. The teacher provides spiritually to the flock, the flock provides materially to the teacher. That is what the Bible says.
As for house churches, there is no command for it. There is, however, the historical example of house churches as there also is of catecombs. Home churches are good. That does not make non-home churches in and of itself bad. There is also the historical example of Paul teaching disciples at Tyrannus lecture hall in Acts and the upper room where breaking of bread and preaching took place in Troas in Acts 20 ( that was not a house ).
All this to say that God was very silent about intructions for the meeting place. Why? Because it isn't about the meeting place it is about Christ only. Where two are three are gathered there I will be in their midst.
The question about wise use of God's resources and whether a building or salaries is a good stewardship of those resources takes you into a different realm of thought. I suggest that until you have rightly got stewardship over how you use your own resources for your own living expenses under control that criticising other's use of their spending is premature. We all (most) spend money the wrong way if the standard is giving as much of your resources as possible to the poor. This is not to say that evaluating how churches spend money isn't essential. I know a guy who rails against "pastor" salaries paid through the church because he thinks the money should rather be used for the poor but that same guy has no problem spending hundreds of dollars a year on and multiple hours reading Christian theological literature. How much teaching do we need when there are poor all around us??? Look not only to money, look to your time. Myself, I "cheerfully" tithe my time and should be ashamed for not giving everything.
For those who rightly say we should follow the Spirit's leading in giving to the local assembly, you couldn't be more right. When the Spirit speaks we should listen and cheerfully and joyfully obey. The Spirit wrote the Scriptures. The Scriptures are clear...you must sow materially in those who feed you spiritually. Those who make preaching the Gospel their life deserve to live materially from the Gospel. Will you obey??
|
|
2010/4/23 8:19 | Profile |
whyme Member
Joined: 2007/4/3 Posts: 293
| Re: | | Thought this quote from JC Ryle might help:
"Pray daily for a great outpouring of the Spirit on the Church and on the world. This is the grand need of the day-----it is the thing that we need far more than money, machinery and men. The "company of preachers" in Christendom is far greater than it was in the days of Paul; but the actual spiritual work done in the earht, in prportion to the means used, is undoubtedly far less. We need more of the presence of the Holy Spirit----more in the pulpit, and more in the congregation---more in the pastoral visit, and more in the school. Where He is, there will be life, health, growth and fruitfulness. Where He is not----all will be dead, tame, formal, sleepy, and cold. Then let everyone who desires to see an increase of pure and undefiled religion, pray daily for more of the presence of the Holy Spirit in every branch of the visible Church of Christ."
this quote points to a very significant point Jesus made to the Pharisees and to us, whether we love steeples and paid pastors (lots of dead church buildings here ) or whether we love house churches and unpaid elders (lots of dead church buildings here as well )....... Jesus stressed SUBSTANCE over Form!!! If Jesus was talking to the woman at the well today He would tell her that a day is coming when you won't worry about which mountain or church edifice (house or building) you worship in because we will worship in spirit and in truth. |
|
2010/4/23 9:03 | Profile |
Miccah Member
Joined: 2007/9/13 Posts: 1752 Wisconsin
| Re: | | whyme,
I agree with almost all you are saying. Giving (tithe) is what we are to do. Jesus said to give all you have...
Where I think we differ is on the mandatory giving enforced by the local church. Giving should be just that...giving. It should never be enforced by man, but given from the heart. _________________ Christiaan
|
|
2010/4/23 11:34 | Profile |
passerby Member
Joined: 2008/8/13 Posts: 742
| Re: | | I agree too, 'substance over form'. It is the 'abiding biblical principles' behind our giving, behind our services, behind our ministries, behind the assembly or care of the saints that really matter.
I am for home churches, but neither will I unnecessarily oppose those who want to have their own assembly or ministry hall.
But I tend to have a negative impression towards the stadium-sized mega churches or family-controlled spiritual dynasties. |
|
2010/4/23 17:20 | Profile |
twayneb Member
Joined: 2009/4/5 Posts: 2256 Joplin, Missouri
| Re: Home vs small vs mega... | | I see the discussion shifting quite a bit and have a suggestion. It did me a great deal of good to read The Normal Christian Church Life by Watchman Nee. God had been showing me some things, and I was amazed at how closely Nee's perspective paralleled what I was seeing through scripture. He dealt with the Biblical pattern for "doing church" so to speak, although I am sure he would disagree with the phrase "doing church", but I really don't have better words for it at the moment.
Travis _________________ Travis
|
|
2010/4/23 18:59 | Profile |
| Re: | | I agree, its not just food that they are receiving, but spiritual counseling, mentoring, educating and job placement; and that's just the of what our local food mission does in Nashville tn
Send the tithe to them, let the pastors take a pay cut and find a regular job. Quit telling there congregation to forgo there vacations and give that money to the building fund, like our previous pastor said, just weeks before he and his family went to the beach.
but you say, 'If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),' |
|
2010/4/25 9:39 | |
jimp Member
Joined: 2005/6/18 Posts: 1481
| Re: | | hi,the church i am with has planted and supported nearly 20000 churches around the world since 2000. we have a food bank and have fed thousands after hurricanes and feed the poor on a regular basis... we have a unwed mothers center that takes care of women in lieu of abortion... we have bailed out other ministries around the country who have had unexspected financial problems...we baptize hundreds of people each year...we preach Christ and Him crucified... we train people for the work of God...i wish i could give millions.we have sponsored a r. bonky (spelling)meeting in africa for nearly a million.jimp |
|
2010/4/25 15:47 | Profile |
ginnyrose Member
Joined: 2004/7/7 Posts: 7534 Mississippi
| Re: | | Quote by jimp:
Quote:
hi,the church i am with has planted and supported nearly 20000 churches around the world since 2000. we have a food bank and have fed thousands after hurricanes and feed the poor on a regular basis... we have a unwed mothers center that takes care of women in lieu of abortion... we have bailed out other ministries around the country who have had unexpected financial problems...we baptize hundreds of people each year...we preach Christ and Him crucified... we train people for the work of God...i wish i could give millions.we have sponsored a r. bonky (spelling)meeting in Africa for nearly a million.jimp
jimp, what kind of church are you with that has the financial resourses to do all you mentioned? or, are you talking about the universal church?
ginnyrose _________________ Sandra Miller
|
|
2010/4/25 19:50 | Profile |
jimp Member
Joined: 2005/6/18 Posts: 1481
| Re: | | hi,we have one church with three locations in baton rouge with no real membership from its beginnings 50 years ago the first check ever writen by the chuch went to missions.we are in cooperation with most of the churches in br and fellowship and promote them. my pastor started the church planting in 2000 and we have other churches in the process.in alabama a church with a homeless ministry reported that a few homeless guys got jobs and have pooled there resouses to plant three churches in china. my pastor resently started a ministers confrence to restore moral and financial integrity to the church in the USA.our youth convention is coming up and they expect 8000 to attend.we started with 5 people and had about 200 when i started going.i moved here to go there.we have started some great works from our church along the way and we have somewhere over 10000 coming now...all thru evangelism ...go out and bring them in. jimp |
|
2010/4/25 20:09 | Profile |