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Discussion Forum : General Topics : "Praying Through" (to victory over sin)

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moreofHim
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Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: victory

Hi Greg, I know what you are getting at. I struggle with this sometimes- this thinking that I have to "do" something about these things. I guess what it comes down to is TRUST. If we trust Christ as our victory and if we trust Christ - as in give up, surrender, lay down on His bed of rest- then He will make sure that we walk according to the spirit and not the flesh. But when we think we must "do" instead of letting Him "do" then we are still walking in the flesh.

I know it is a bit hard to comprehend- especailly for us who like to "do" and make things happen. I have come from that too and still struggle with it. But I am learning to lay down on His bed of rest- hands up in surrender and say "Lord, You take over" and He does. In this there is no way of us walking in the flesh because He has taken over and is in full charge.

When I try to make things happen a certain way or try to "do" something, it is "ME" -and that would be flesh or self.

That's what is so neat about total surrender. The Lord has shown me that to put our hands up- like we're "surrendering" and say, ok, I give up, You win, You take over"- this is what He wants and this is when we can overcome in all things. We need to acknowledge that He has won this war of the will and let Him run it Himself.

There is no chance of falling, or not doing things that we shouldn't in this position (of hands up, surrender) because He is in control and running the show. The first thing that comes to our minds is "..But, what about devotions, what about this and that, I NEED to do this, what about....." All of that is us saying that we don't trust that He is going to be the good shepherd and lead us aright. When He is running the show, He is capable of letting us know, "hey, it;s time for some quiet time", or "it's time to go give of yourself to that nursing home" or whatever.

we just don't see how it's possible that if we are not running things, how are they going to get done. But still that's the trust issue. We want to stay in control or we don't know how to give up control to a God that we can't see or hear (sometimes) What if, what if....

Does any of this make any sense?

I know what you mean by saying that we are not to sit back and just do nothing about anything. We have to actively put our trust and our "selves" into the hands of God and go from there. Things might be a little slow at first, but we are so used to doing things our way; and just "doing' things in general. We have to just "BE". BE hidden in Him, BE clothed in Him, Be at His feet. We have to trust that [b]yes, He will show us the next step when we He wants us to move.[/b] He really does. I used to think, what if I sit here at His feet and He never says "get up and go do". He does. :)

In Him, Chanin


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Chanin

 2004/9/2 9:33Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Does any of this make any sense?


Yes Chanin, and what clicked in my mind was the story of Paris Reidhead in the message "Ten Shekels and a Shirt":

---

He was like a fellow driving up in a big Cadillac, you know, to someone standing at the filling station, saying "Fill her up, bub, with the highest octane you’ve got!" Well, that’s the way it looked. He wanted power for his program. God is not going to be a means to anyone’s end. I said, "I’m awfully sorry, I don’t think that I can help you." He said, "Why?" I said, "I don’t think you’re ready." I said, "Well, suppose you consider yourself coming up with a Cadillac. You’ve talked about your program, you’ve talked about your radio, you’ve talked about your Sunday School and church. It’s very good. You’ve done wonderfully well without the power of the Holy Spirit." That’s what the Chinese Christian said, you know, when he got back to China. "What impressed you most about America?" He said, "The great things Americans can accomplish with out God." And he, (the young preacher) accomplished a great deal, admittedly without god. Now he wanted something of power to accomplish his ends even further. I said, "No….no…you’re sitting behind the wheel and you’re saying to God, "Give me power so I can go." You won’t work. You’ve got to slide over." But I knew the rascal, because I knew me. I said, "No, it will never do. You’ve got to get in the back seat." And I could see him leaning over and grabbing the wheel. "No," I said, "it will never do in the back seat." I said. "Before God will do anything for you, you know what you’ve go to do?" So he said, "What?" I said, "You’ve got to get out of the car, take the keys around, open up the trunk lid, hand the keys to the Lord Jesus, get inside the trunk, slam the lid down, whisper through the keyhole, "Lord – look. Fill her up with anything you want and you drive, it’s up to you from now on." That’s why so many people you know, do not enter into the fullness of Christ. Because they want to become a Levite with ten shekels and a shirt. They’ve been serving Micah, but they think if they had the power of the Holy Ghost they could serve the tribe of Dan.

---

Chanin, I agree with what you are saying but I don't think that is it alone, There is a definite place for full surrender to God but its not just a mindset or action of the mind but its a whole action of the will which will transform all our actions and being towards God.

Keith Daniel has a very neat phrase: On James 2, "you are not saved unless your faith works"

Our faith does and will "work" if our faith is genuine in christ. Its a natural overflow of having faith in Christ is doing things and living a life for Christ. Surrender is pivotal as you really show well but it has to be a surrender of our whole being which will translate into good works and not just "being" but "doing"! but dont mistake me, the "doing" is a natural outflow of "being". Hmm I think I need to ask the question you asked hehe:

Does any of this make any sense?


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/9/2 10:00Profile
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 Re: doing vs. being

Quote:
Surrender is pivotal as you really show well but it has to be a surrender of our whole being which will translate into good works and not just "being" but "doing"! but dont mistake me, the "doing" is a natural outflow of "being



I think we are saying the same thing here. at least that is what I was trying to say at the end of my post. :-) That if we live fully surrendered, those good works will flow out. He will cause them to flow out though, not us. If we try to make them flow out a certain way- it is not really Christ but "self"- and that is really just an Ishmael instead of waiting for the promised Isaac.

Believe me, I struggle with this all of the time. I always want to "do" something. But He always reminds me to wait on Him, wait until I am told to go, wait until I am told to do. In the mean time, I am kept busy with the many things of day to day life which I am responsible with being obedient to first anyway. :-)

We may do many good things that seem to "help" God get things going. just like Abraham and Sarah, I am sure they thought maybe they were just "helping out a little" and maybe God didn't mean exactly what He said when He made the promise. This produced Ishamel which was produced in the flesh. They didn't trust God to carry through with the promise because they were waiting so long. I wonder how many things we "do" in the flesh because we are waiting so long for God to come through with what He promised us.

When I talk about surrender- I am talking about our whole being and more also. That's why I say that about the "rest". Giving up complete control of everything is not easy for anyone. Giving up or wills and rights- even our rights to "do" something for God. We cannot produce good works for Him in the flesh. We cannot make ourselves walk in the spirit. We cannot crucify our flesh. Only He can do these things as we lay ourselves out for Him.

You know that verse ...learn of Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls"?

I think about how we are supposed to learn of Him, learn from Him, do what He did. He only did what He saw His father doing- and that's it- no more and no less. So it is with us. We should only be doing what we see the Father doing (and showing us to do)no more and no less. When i think of jesus' life, there was no striving, no straining. This is also why I think He says that if we learn from Him (and all of His gentle and lowly ways) that we will find rest. Because we should only be doing what we see the Father doing and not making our own plans and making our own Godly agendas and not following any man's plan. "Learn from ME".

These are all things I am still learning myself, so as i say these things I am talking to myself as well. :-)

Still pondering. :-)


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Chanin

 2004/9/2 10:39Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
When I talk about surrender- I am talking about our whole being and more also. That's why I say that about the "rest". Giving up complete control of everything is not easy for anyone. Giving up or wills and rights- even our rights to "do" something for God. We cannot produce good works for Him in the flesh. We cannot make ourselves walk in the spirit. We cannot crucify our flesh. Only He can do these things as we lay ourselves out for Him.


Some great stuff here Chanin, yes I love what you said about Abraham trying in the flesh and finally when they could do NOTHING ELSE God said can I work now? will you have faith to let me?

One question I would like to ask you after reading through this, it kinda pertains to the original reason this thread started. My kinda advice to brother Ed is to read the word of God and pray through, not giving up. In the surrendered life does the will to pray and read the bible come naturally? even our desire to seek God and believe on Him? is it fully from God? like if I say to myself I want to determine to pray the entire night or to say I want to devour the word of God, is that necessary automatically 'in the flesh' because its something that I am choosing to do? I think this may be a good topic of discussion perhaps?


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/9/2 10:50Profile
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 Re: surrender

Quote:
In the surrendered life does the will to pray and read the bible come naturally? even our desire to seek God and believe on Him? is it fully from God? like if I say to myself I want to determine to pray the entire night or to say I want to devour the word of God, is that necessary automatically 'in the flesh' because its something that I am choosing to do?



hmmmm. Yes!, i believe that it can be natural from God- but that when we feel we have to do it because of some other reason, like because we see someone else doing it or false guilt, or because we heard we "should", then no, that is the flesh. God is the ultimate shepherd and we follow Him. He is capable of leading, but we must follow Him and not man or self.

I am going to put this here to in regards to your remark about "something seems missing" about all of this (from a 'pm') because i feel it might help me and anyone else feeling the same way. :)

I know this sounds funny but I am excited to hear you say this "I still feel there is a piece of the puzzle we need to place with it." because thats what i have been saying also and have been praying all year about. but slowly I am getting revelation on this. it is hard to explain, but the Lord keeps showing me this thing about the beds. our "self" struggles so much with still wanting to "do". we feel we must, we feel we just have to. Laying that down is impossibly hard. but i am learning. because when i don't lay that down, I am striving in the flesh. it's like that last thing to lay down. do I trust God to be enough, to work in me enough, to be my "good works" and that He will produce good works through me- in HIS timing and HIS way.

I am just getting some breakthrough here, so bear with me. I felt there was somehting missing all along too but it was because I didn't understand what it meant to rest in Him. i thought i did, but i thought it was a cop out. "What about our part?" Our part is having the guts to lay it all down for him to take care of -and to walk in obedience to that. Having the guts to trust Him that He is all we need and that it doesn't matter what anyone else does or thinks. it's about my relationship with God and fixing our eyes on Him and His will for each one of us- not his will for someone else. It's so easy to look around and see many others doing so many other things. But we can't concern ourselves with what anybody else does or did. We are responsible only for what we do and how we surrender to Him.

Just think if we didn't compare ourwalk with anyone elses and just trusted in the Lord for our walk with Him- and that He would lead us to do His will. What a weight that comes off of us. we are only to share a yolk with Christ- that is a pretty easy one since we just follow Him and do what He says to do (not easy as no suffering or anything) but I think many times we are sharing the yolks of others- trying to do what others have done and are doing -and that makes for a pretty heavy burden, a very heavy yolk.
We are to share the yolk with Christ only.

Just more thoughts coming... and i'm sure there's more. I am on a roll (of sorts) i love getting new revelation. this is one I have been waiting on for awhile. :-)


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Chanin

 2004/9/2 11:09Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Surrender is pivotal as you really show well but it has to be a surrender of our whole being which will translate into good works and not just "being" but "doing"! but dont mistake me, the "doing" is a natural outflow of "being". Hmm I think I need to ask the question you asked hehe:



Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Phi 2:12-13 KJV)
You will only work out what God has worked in.

Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.(Col 1:28-29 KJV)
Striving is agōnizomai; to contend for a prize, struggle: - competes in the games (1), fight (1), fighting (1), fought (1), laboring earnestly (1), strive (2), striving (1). It is the word we get 'agonize' from but the emphasis is not on pain but effort. Did you see some of those athletes in the Olympic Games? They were so concentrated they didn't even blink. There is a place for passionate concentration but we must never think that it is our struggling that wins the prize. It is His struggling within us. The Spirit both hovers [Gen 1:2] and strives [Gen 6:3] The classic combination of these two states is to be found in a peculiar tension in the KJV; Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Heb 4:11 KJV) The word should really be 'be diligent' but I like the contrast.


Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.(Rom 6:8-13 NASB)The 'reckoning'(consider) here is preceeded by conscious experience, but the 'presenting' is preceeded by the 'reckoning'. I have opted for the NASB because the English word 'yield' is too passive to do justice to this. This is the same active surrender found in Rom 12:1. Do soldiers over there 'present arms'? It is the military equivalent of offering your weapon to your commanding officer; it is at his disposal even though it is still in your hands. This is not the yielding of a passive sigh, but the active presenting of all that we are to Christ.

Presenting arms is not exertion, but neither is it pietistic passivity. When you have 'presented arms' (presented your weapons... to God) there will be plenty of exertion ahead.

Here is the balance; for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (Rom 8:13 NASB)

you, you must do it... but... by the Spirit.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/2 11:12Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
you, you must do it... but... by the Spirit.


Ron, yes! this is it exactly. "we" still choose, "we" still surrender. He doesn't make us do anything. He may prompt us, and when we "do" surrender or present ourselves to Him, then by the spirit He guides us.

Quote:
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


yes, even in this I see myself laboring to try to enter this rest. it's such an oxymoron in a way. But, yes, I feel that i have been trying to get to that place of rest that i know He is trying to show me- instead of trusting in my "self".

I think i may be at my limit for revelation today. the words are starting to go round and round. :-P


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Chanin

 2004/9/2 11:24Profile
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 Re:

Wow, this is a great discussion. Very meaty.

I've been praying about unbelief since November of last year. I could write a book about it I believe but the revelation is still coming. The things that were in my heart were appalling to me. I sincerely think that unbelief is the number one sin among believers. Most believers are not even aware of this, which saddens my heart deeply.

We love him because he first loved us. Everything in our relationship with Jesus Christ is because He is the initiater. The Holy Spirit convicts our hearts of sin, of unbelief, etc. It's not something we do.

Our prayers, our Bible study, fasting, etc. do not merit any additional favor with God but these things come out of this relationship with the risen Christ. He is the Alpha and the Omega.

One of the real struggles I've had is this attempt to somehow "make it up" to God. God I've been such a heathen, such a sinner, such a wayward one, I want to make it up to you in some way. I've prayed for the baptism of fire that God would smite me (the list could go on for awhile). I've made all sorts of prayers along these lines and God is purging these things from me as I die.

I simply can't make it up to God. My wife and I were at a casino close to a year ago and we lost some money and I begin to pray that I would break even (not advocating gambling here and it's something I had to repent of). He was gracious, then I promptly lost that money. I then saw a sign where the chips were to be cashed in that said "self-redemption." I started crying and I repented but we're redeemed only by the blood of the Lamb.

Of late, I've been convicted of all the "Ismaelites" (Galatians 4) in my life where I tried to help God in some way and there's nothing I can do to make it up to Jesus. Does that mean I give up? No, but I give up trying to do this in my own strength in my own power. Isaiah 50:11 says "But now, all you who light fires and provide yourselves with flaming torches, go, walk in the light of your fires and of the torches you have set ablaze. This is what you shall receive from my hand: You will lie down in torment."

Remember when Peter denied Christ three times. Peter said moi? I don't think so Lord, not me, I'll even die for you. And you see God will never glorify our flesh and you see this marvelous transformation in Peter's life after he repented of this unbelief and pride to where he preached one of the most powerful sermons recorded in the Bible. It was God that changed His heart, not through the power of his own efforts.

One part of the revival hymn that Greg didn't quote comes to mind from Brother Reidhead "I looked at the fellow and you know what he looked like? Me. Just looked like me. I just saw in him everything that was in me, you thought You thought I was going to say “me” before. No, listen to your heart. If you’ve ever seen yourself you’ll know that you’re never gonna be anything else than you were. For in me in my flesh, there is no good thing."

I apologize for posting a bit much but I strongly believe I'm not the only person at this particular place in their journey.




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Ed Pugh

 2004/9/2 12:16Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
If God has shown you what to do He will show you how to do it. Beware the techniques. I would not ever want to discourage prayer but victory over sin is Christ's job not yours. He was given the name of Jesus because He would save His people from their sins. [b]Faith cannot save you[/b], nor prayer, no matter how tenacious. If it could faith would be your Saviour. Neither can prayer save you, for the same reason.



I agree with what you mean but not with what you say, although you have qualified your expression it is still in direct contradiction to Jesus' words;

(Luk 7:50) And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

(Luk 18:42) And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.


Isn't it true in every case that the instrument of salvation is faith? Isn't this the method God has chosen? Yes, in the deepest sense, it was Jesus who saved the women and the blind man in Luke but He still said "thy faith has saved thee" because he knew that faith would not claim any glory for self.

Faith is to salvation like the mouth is to hunger. If we're hungry then bread is the real cure but it would be right to say that eating removes hunger since the bread itself does us no good unless it goes in the mouth. Faith is the souls mouth. The prayer of faith is the hand that grabs the salvation of Christ, salvation from the guilt and power of sin, and so we are saved.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2004/9/2 12:42Profile
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 Re: peter

Quote:
Remember when Peter denied Christ three times. Peter said moi? I don't think so Lord, not me, I'll even die for you. And you see God will never glorify our flesh and you see this marvelous transformation in Peter's life after he repented of this unbelief and pride to where he preached one of the most powerful sermons recorded in the Bible. It was God that changed His heart, not through the power of his own efforts.



Wow, I was thinking the same thing. I couldn't remember at the time how to go about explaining that- just remember reading it from Andrew Murray.

I think this is "all good"! I think the sharing back and forth and feeding off of what each other is saying is awsome in itself. Real fellowship. I am still in this whole process of understanding too. This whole balance between working for Him and Him working through me.

In Him, Chanin


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Chanin

 2004/9/2 12:51Profile





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