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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Original Sin

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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Todd
your quote "2. I have recently been learning and thinking more about repentance. Since one important meaning of it is "turning back (to God)," what could this be referring to if not to how we originally were (as children before the age of accountability)? Well, I suppose it could be taken more "spiritually" to turning back to how we (as a race) were before the fall (in relation to God). But I still find it interesting."

More directly, 'turning' is the result of 'repentance', in the same way that 'repentance' is the result of 'godly sorrow'. Don't be misled by the English word 'repentance', many Bible translators have argued against it. The Hebrew concept for repentance has grief and mourning at its heart. The Greek word 'metanoia' is used as a translation for the Hebrew but the original Greek meaning for metanoia cannot do justice to the Hebrew concept. We need to have an understanding of 'repentance' which includes the both Hebrew and Greek concepts.

A word more linked to 're-turning' would be the words for 'convert'.

I always find it difficult to promote my own stuff, but I did a Bible study on Repentance that Greg has included on this site. In the language of preachers 'I felt helped' and would encourage you to listen to it. My own understanding clarified in the course of the delivery.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/11/6 4:23Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: to the third and fourth generation Ex 20

I came across a thread on another site which recounted that many Polish christians would not adopt children for fear of bringing 'generational' curses into their family.

In the UK we have 'ministries' that specialise in breaking such 'curses'. I thought the implications might be relevant to this thread and would like to hear others' comments before giving my own.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/11/10 9:42Profile
almondBranch
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Joined: 2003/10/6
Posts: 91
Tralee, Ireland

 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
In the UK we have 'ministries' that specialise in breaking such 'curses'. I thought the implications might be relevant to this thread and would like to hear others' comments before giving my own.



I have quite a problem with that whole concept to be honest, we are living in the new covenant and as in ezekiel 18, as I read it, it says that the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father. I believe that ezekiel prophesied of these days. the message that is promoted today seems to say that the fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge.

Most of the cities that paul preached in were steeped in paganism yet we don't read anywhere that paul encourages them to go rooting around in their past in case their granma had ever been to a witch or what have you. On the contrary he seems to deal with the present generation as it stands; after listing out certain iniquities he says "such were some of you, but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God"

Stuart.


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Stuart

 2003/11/10 9:54Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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Reading, UK

 Re: Sin and sins thread

Just wanted to make a link from here to a relevant posting to our debate.
Sin and sins

BTW if there are any Palm OS users out there who would like a Palm version of Oswald Chambers 'My Utmost for His Highest' just let me know and I will send you one. My son did it for me and it works well.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/11/10 10:55Profile
philologos
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Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: third and fourth generation; whose?

Here's another hypothesis. I have thought about some of these issues for a long time and developed a kind of 'best fit' theology for some of these issues. Perhaps you can tell me how well you think it fits?

The 10 Commandments are a uniquely Jewish application of a universal law written in the hearts of all nations. The account in Ex 20 is a kind of tenancy agreement for the people of Israel. Keep the commandments, keep the land, otherwise - eviction. The 'children honouring parents' code has a distinctive tenancy flavour but the notion runs all through the chapter.

This 'iniquity' passing to the 'third and fourth generation' is apparently addressed to those for whom God is 'Thy God' (see 20:5 and the original conditional clauses of 19:5) This can only apply to Israel; He declared Himself as Jehovah to none other.

The 'curse' then is to come on the 'third and fourth generation' of Israelites who have committed idolatry and who God describes as 'those who hate me'. This is by no means a universal dictum but something uniquely Israelite. I think the hypothesis gathers evidence from verse such as Amos 3:2 "You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities."

That seems to be saying that extra privilege brings extra responsibility, and that Israel's unique relationship with God brings the threat of punishment for 'all' your iniquities.

I think this is where almondbranch's line fits in. God has now established a New Covenant "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt" Jer 31:32. In this New Covenant it will not be said that "the fathers have eaten bitter fruit and the children'd teeth set on edge". Jer 31:29,30 Ezek 18:2.

What do you think?


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Ron Bailey

 2003/11/11 12:42Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I think this is where almondbranch's line fits in. God has now established a New Covenant "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt" Jer 31:32. In this New Covenant it will not be said that "the fathers have eaten bitter fruit and the children'd teeth set on edge". Jer 31:29,30 Ezek 18:2.


I agree with alot that you said Ron, but I am very weary with dispensational thought, to make sense of an hard biblical thought. I still believe that there is a very good chance that generational curses and blessings are still in effect.

[b]2 Timothy 1:5(kjv)[/b] - When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

[i]blessing carried through:[/i]
Grandmother Lois --- Mother Eunice --- Son Timothy

and mabye this needs to be another forum but: Was the new convenant in effect in Abraham and others that knew of Jesus and had the Holy Spirit in them?


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/11/14 12:41Profile
almondBranch
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Joined: 2003/10/6
Posts: 91
Tralee, Ireland

 Re:

Quote:
2 Timothy 1:5(kjv) - When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

blessing carried through:
Grandmother Lois --- Mother Eunice --- Son Timothy



I would be inclined to think that the blessing in this case was carried through in the sense of "train up a child in the way he should go" Godly example, Godly prayer, Godly instruction. I am sure that the reverse is also true in many cases, we see it with alcoholism and other destructive behaviour patterns. This, I would think, is different from the iniquities being visited on the children to the third and fourth generation by God. I would certainly believe it is polls apart from the "generational curses" being expounded upon by todays deliverance ministers.

Stuart


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Stuart

 2003/11/14 12:52Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
I would be inclined to think that the blessing in this case was carried through in the sense of "train up a child in the way he should go" Godly example, Godly prayer, Godly instruction. I am sure that the reverse is also true in many cases, we see it with alcoholism and other destructive behaviour patterns. This, I would think, is different from the iniquities being visited on the children to the third and fourth generation by God. I would certainly believe it is polls apart from the "generational curses" being expounded upon by todays deliverance ministers.


Agreed, "evil company corrupts..."
"likelyhood" seems to be the emphesis, since we learn so much from our parents subconsciously, by their actions and reactions. And it does work both ways, a healthy set of morals, strong work ethic etc. Beyond that even our peers can strongly shape us for good or evil.

Certainly 'generational curses' cannot be in effect to a Christian and in effect all are under one universal 'generational curse', sin.
Only those who have turned to the Redeemer are cured.

But for all that, does God merit out individual 'curses' on the unbelieving today? Or is it the apprehension to come to The Light that brings a curse upon themselves?

More inclinded to think that Ron's reasoning may be closer to the intention in regard's to this issue.

But I am curious as to what your thoughts are Greg, in what ways do you think this is still applicable?


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Mike Balog

 2003/11/14 17:48Profile





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