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Aussiedler
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Joined: 2005/2/14
Posts: 109
GERMANY

 Re:

The Word of God is the Word of God, a living Person. This Person does not have to be concordant to Arminianism or Calvinism nor any other Person or confession. Calvin, Arminius and all the others have to bow before the Word of God!

The fact is, there are scriptures in the bible that seem to go along with Calvin and there are scriptures that seem to confirm arminius. BUT: This is a totally wrong view. If we read the bible from this persepective, i.e. if the bible fits into calvinism or any other "ism", than we are deceived.



Whose side are you on? asked Joshua the Angel of the lord. What was the answer?

"NO; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come"

That "NO" meant: Joshua, you have the wrong perspective. I don't have to fit into anyones thinking. What was Joshuas response?

"And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? "

Joshua humbled himself. Everytime we find something in the bible we don'T understand, we have to humble ourself to the word of god and we have to say something like this in our heart: This is the word of god, I don't understand it, BUT IT IS THE TRUTH AND I WILL CONFORM TO THE TRUTH EVEN IF I DONT UNDERSTAND IT.

Everytime we find scriptures, that seem to contradict, we try to make them fit together. that is eating from the tree of knowledge. that is dead doctrine, mere understanding, trying to make God fit into our mind. So we can try to "bow" every scripture that seem "calvinistic" to make them fit to the "arminian" scriptures or vice versa, BUT THAT WILL ONLY PRODUCE DEAD DOCTRINE.

Brothers and sisters, we should not read the word of god from a wrong persective like "Does the bibel support Calvinism?" or "Does the Bible support Arminianism?" The Bible supports Christ and every "ism" has to bow before Christ, who is the living Word.

(excuse my english grammar, I am from germany)

 2009/7/2 7:06Profile
repentcanada
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Joined: 2005/5/9
Posts: 659


 Re: A HISTORICAL EXAMINATION OF THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL SECURITY

"Eternal Security is pagan in its origin and is a thought that is in opposition to the Bible and genuine Christianity. Its lineage cannot be traced back but a few hundred years where it draws its inspiration from the "perseverance of the Saints" which in turn was drawn from Augustine's introduction of Gnostic and Buddhist thought into the Church. Eternal Security has a
history, but not a very good one for the Christian who knows its origin."

the above quote is from the initial article posted, and it is heresy.

 2009/7/2 7:17Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

repentcanada wrote:


the above quote is from the initial article posted, and it is heresy.




So basically you think or judge me as a heretic? as someone who divides the body of Christ by believing/teaching this to be true?

I have found the above quote to be true, not from reading this article in particular but after reading much else where, and I have come to the conclusion the doctrine of eternal security, depending how you define it since it means different to different people, but the first ones i find teaching this doctrine where some of the gnostic groups. And the apostle John wrote his letter (1 Jo) to address these gnostic teachings, one where once you are saved you can not lose your salvation and thus one can live in sin.

They taught much more things then this, but I think you are to hasty calling people heretics. I know many here on this site do not believe in eternal security, I could define more clearly what i personally believe but it does not matter, to call one a heretic is to say he is not good to fellowship with for other believers.


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 2009/7/2 7:53Profile
tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
So basically you think or judge me as a heretic?



He said the quote was heresy. Not You. Not anyone. He was addressing the quote.

Quote:
I have found the above quote to be true



And I have found it to be false. The word of God is neglected by this author. Jesus Himself teaches/taught perseverance of the saints. It is biblical truth. No amount of articles or historical research is going to nullify the Word of God.

I believe that the problem lies in the perverted OSAS teaching that is so prevalent today. Historic/Biblically accurate perseverance of the saints (POS) does not promote sin or let anyone continue resting in assurance that is engaged in willful sin. As Paul Washer has said many times. "OSAS that is taught in most churches today is damnable heresy." But that does not mean that the eternal security of the believer is not true.

Quote:
...I think you are to hasty calling people heretics. I know many here on this site do not believe in eternal security, I could define more clearly what i personally believe but it does not matter, to call one a heretic is to say he is not good to fellowship with for other believers.



I cannot find where repentcanada calls anyone a heretic. I ask that you read his post again. It is not personal. He was not addressing you or anyone else. He simply addresses the quote.


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TJ

 2009/7/2 8:49Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

maybe i misunderstood, but to me a heretic is someone who holds a heretical doctrine. A heresy... the greek word can mean to divide i think, or is it possible to have "heretical" doctrines without being a heretic?

not sure :-) I dont see or call anyone a heretic for holding the view of eternal security, (depending on definition) but i have read scripture and also come to the conclusion its not to be found. As taught by most people today, there are security but it comes with condition, if we fail the condition i am not so sure any more. But not wanting to discuss this right now :-) rather calling those who have found the same thing revealed by God to them to be true and dont see eternal security as taught by most as a true biblical doctrine, are all those in heresy?

It would exclude a large group of christians....

and what i dont see in the scripture is a born again christian can under no circumstances what so ever by any reason never ever end up lost. scripture does not teach that and scripture in its entirety teaches just the opposite. But for all who want to be saved and have faith and continue in that faith until the end such people will never ever be lost. I do agree on Paul Washers statement, and i do know the osas junk preached today is not what "reformed" preachers of old preached when speaking of eternal security, i dont agree with most of them either :-) but its not important

I just thought it was a bit "harsh" calling it heresy, and the logical conclusion of someone who hold to a "heresy" would make him a heretic wouldn't it? or does anyone have a better definition?

gods peace and love.


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 2009/7/2 10:26Profile
repentcanada
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Joined: 2005/5/9
Posts: 659


 Re:

heresy
HER'ESY, n. [Gr. to take, to hold; L. haeresis.]


1. A fundamental error in religion, or an error of opinion respecting some fundamental doctrine of religion. But in countries where there is an established church, an opinion is deemed heresy, when it differs from that of the church. The Scriptures being the standard of faith, any opinion that is repugnant to its doctrines, is heresy; but as men differ in the interpretation of Scripture, an opinion deemed heretical by one body of christians,may be deemed orthodox by another. In Scripture and primitive usage,heresy meant merely sect, party, or the doctrines of a sect, as we now use denomination or persuasion, implying no reproach.

2. Heresy, in law, is an offense against christianity, consisting in a denial of some of its essential doctrines, publicly avowed and obstinately maintained.

3. An untenable or unsound opinion or doctrine in politics.

http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/search/word,heresy

 2009/7/2 10:57Profile
tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
and what i dont see in the scripture is a born again christian can under no circumstances what so ever by any reason never ever end up lost. scripture does not teach that and scripture in its entirety teaches just the opposite.



This is a problem when folks do not understand the role they played in their salvation. It is ALL of God. We are spiritually DEAD. Not injured. HE chooses us. HE is sovereign. HE gets exactly what HE wants. The elect will be in heaven because HE decreed it. He chooses us. A faulty view of election often leads to an unscriptural belief that lose of salvation is possible.

John 15:16 (NKJV) You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.


It is ALL of God.

HE keeps us.

John 6:37-39 (NKJV) 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing…

HE will not let us go.

John 10:27-30 (NKJV) 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."

HE is the one who perseveres.

Therefore, the elect persevere through HIM because of HIM


It is ALL of HIM.


Philippians 1:6 (NKJV) being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

******************

There is really very little scriptural basis that can be used to argue against the eternal security of the believer. While there are a few verses that, if not considered in their context, might give the impression that one could “fall from grace” or lose their salvation, when these verses are carefully considered in context it is clear that is not the case.
[url=http://www.gotquestions.org/perseverance-saints.html]Source[/url]


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TJ

 2009/7/2 11:05Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

I know salvation is all of God, but also scripture is full of verses that say "chose ye" , scripture is full of jews whom all where chosen by God, saved all by God out of egypt, all of God parted the red sea, all was of God sending manna from heaven, it was ALL God. Yet most of them died in the desert. Many of Jesus teachings and parallels show much the possibility, revelation have many verses, Pauls letters would be totally a waste of space and time to write if they made no difference, in fact it would be better we went straight to heaven when we are saved. Because we can not effect anything anyway?

and i agree with all of scripture, and as i said, i believe in eternal security if one fulfill the conditions.

Quote:
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish



I amen that verse, but do only i see the condition for never perishing?

And i believe God will make us persevere, if we agree to let him do that in our lives, he never force anyone into heaven just as he never forced the jews into the promised land.

and to say there are very little support for argue against the eternal security i have found the opposite, i have found very little, just a handful of verses. And all of those have a condition attached to them.



But i will gladly hold to the heresy so called, until God shows me different, i used to believe like many of you but after studying the matter more in depth God showed me differently.

I know we will not agree on this here and now, but knowing the many heretics that also hold this view i am not very worried :-)

But neither do i consider any of you who believe differently to be in heresy.

he will not let us go

no not as long as we want to be keept.

God does not force us into heaven, no one who want sin, self more then God will he force into heaven, adam was not dead as we are, yet God could have forced him not to eat the fruit, he could have "persevered" adam against adams will but he dident. Instead he placed the tree in the midst of the garden, in the middle, center of attraction, so adam would be tested in his obedience.

And no one who wants to depart from the living God after salvation, after God chastise him and by his goodness offer repentance, if that person still prefer the broad way i dont think he will be in heaven. Its impossible for me to know who will be there, but scripture is clear , to me at least. Anyway, i still feel heresy is a to strong word for people who dont hold to eternal security the way augustine, the gnostics, luther viewed it.


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 2009/7/2 13:53Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"

Answer: Before this question is answered, the term “Christian” must be defined. A “Christian” is not a person who has said a prayer, or walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are not what “makes” a Christian. A Christian is a person who has, by faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).

So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation? Perhaps the best way to answer this crucially important question is to examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation, and to study what losing salvation would therefore entail. Here are a few examples:

A Christian is a new creation. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17). This verse speaks of a person becoming an entirely new creature as a result of being “in Christ.” For a Christian to lose salvation, the new creation would have to be canceled and reversed.

A Christian is redeemed. “For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:18-19). The word “redeemed” refers to a purchase being made, a price being paid. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have to revoke His purchase that He paid for with the precious blood of Christ.

A Christian is justified. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1). To “justify” means to “declare righteous.” All those who receive Jesus as Savior are “declared righteous” by God. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and “un-declare” what He had previously declared.

A Christian is promised eternal life. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Eternal life is a promise of eternity (forever) in heaven with God. God promises, “Believe and you will have eternal life.” For a Christian to lose salvation, eternal life would have to be taken away. If a Christian is promised to live forever, how then can God break this promise by taking away eternal life?

A Christian is guaranteed glorification. “And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified” (Romans 8:30). As we learned in Romans 5:1, justification is declared at the moment of faith. According to Romans 8:30, glorification is guaranteed for all those whom God justifies. Glorification refers to a Christian receiving a perfect resurrection body in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.

Many more illustrations of what occurs at salvation could be shared. Even these few make it abundantly clear that a Christian cannot lose salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when we receive Jesus Christ as Savior would be invalidated if salvation could be lost. Salvation cannot be reversed. A Christian cannot be un-newly created. Redemption cannot be undone. Eternal life cannot be lost and still be considered eternal. If a Christian can lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and change His mind—two things that Scripture tells us God never does.

The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot lose salvation are 1) What about those who are Christians and continually live an immoral lifestyle? 2) What about those who are Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem with these two objections is the phrase “who are Christians.” The Bible declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral lifestyle (1 John 3:6). The Bible declares that anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John 2:19). Therefore, neither objection is valid. Christians do not continually live immoral lifestyles, nor do they reject the faith and deny Christ. Such actions are proof that they were never redeemed.

No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a Christian from God’s love (Romans 8:38-39). Nothing can remove a Christian from God’s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude 24-25, “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.” [url=http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html]Source[/url]


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TJ

 2009/7/3 5:43Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone,


tjservant, I was thinking about this following and wanted to suggest somethings if I could?


"We are spiritually DEAD."



I think people are described as being [i]dead in sins and trespasses[/i], but I do not think this means that a man's human spirit is not alive or cannot make decisions.



Consider how Paul describes himself(perhaps as a child) in Romans 7:9, or what the Lord Jesus said to the scribe in Mark 12:34.

And too I think of Naaman, and his decision to heed the word that came to him through Elisha(albeit reluctantly), or how he responded afterwards determining to worship God.

I thought also of Cornelius, who, before he had ever recieved the baptisim of the Holy Spirit, had offered prayers and alms which had come up as a memorial before God.



The spirit of man [i]is[/i] the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.





Wish you all well.


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/7/3 8:06Profile





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