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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A question about repentance and grace

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 Re:

But all repentance is not towards the work of salvation ie justification. Most is towards sanctification and agreeing with God. The bible does not say "I repent you" it says to us "repent". "you repent"!


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2009/6/23 21:01Profile









 Re:

"But all repentance is not towards the work of salvation ie justification. Most is towards sanctification and agreeing with God. The bible does not say "I repent you" it says to us "repent". "you repent"!" Greg

I was listening to Paul Washer talk about what 'confession' means as in 'if we confess our sins'. And he explains about how it is agreement with God concerning the conviction of our sin. I've never heard it explained this way but I knew exactly what he was talking about when he said it. To not acknowledge the conviction of our sin is to deny what God says about the offense. This was in the context of regeneration and not justification by faith.

But in terms of justification by faith or what many refer to 'grace', I think many would agree that a big problem with the mainstream church is the super-expedient simple prayer asking for Jesus to come into our heart without any meaningful acknowledgement or repentance of sin. In these cases it would seem that the death of Jesus is being totally disregarded in terms of sin and salvation. And unless one truly understands this then Jesus is just a name someone speaks and not a Savior to receive and behold. The grace of God gives us the ability to choose repentance and receive the gift of His Son. This is His sovereign idea and plan and it's all freely given. To me this is all oriented to grace, and this is why I believe repentance is involved in grace. The plan for our salvation was His idea out of His love for us, not our idea out of any love for Him. The bible says He chose us first. He didn't have to, so to me this is all grace.

The faith that justifies in my view is the revelation and unequivocal belief that Jesus is who He says He is, and did what the bible says He did, and accept this as truth. Christ did not die for us to accept salvation yet continue in sin as if we never learned or were convicted of anything and want change in our lives. So repentance is a necessary state of heart in accepting the Savior who received His Father's wrath because sin is that serious to Him.




 2009/6/24 7:37









 Re: A question about repentance and grace

Hi trufaithsav,

Quote:
If Christians are not under obligation to obey the law of God, how is it possible for Christians to keep the commandments? Just as you argued, you cannot break the law if you are not under the law, likewise you cannot keep the commandments if you are not under the commandments.

I see what you're asking.

Another question has to do with how we ever define 'sins'.

I have heard that 'keep the law' is the way Jewish lawkeeping is described in the New Testament, but that believers [i]fulfil[/i] the law. Did you ever consdier that?

Luke 11:28; John 8:52; John 14:15, 21, 23, 24; John 15:10; 1 Cor 7:19.

It seems that the apostles are talking about teaching which they heard from Jesus, or was passed on to them which Jesus had taught, or, which God through the Holy Spirit made known to them after Pentecost; [u]not[/u] 'the law'. But, as the law reveals to us God's heart, we can be certain that He could say nothing under the New Covenant, which was incompatible with the heart and meaning of the Old Covenant.

Rom 8:4; Gal 5:14; Rom 2:27; Gal 6:2; James 2:8.

The first verses of Romans 10 distinguishes between the way Jews kept the law apart from Christ, and the righteousness which comes through faith in His everlasting atonement.


[color=336699]2 Cor 5:14
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.

17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. [/color]


Reconcliation with God requires repentance to convince Him that we are ready - as Paul Washer would put it - to change our relationship with sin. For it is this change in our relationship with sin, which enables God to facilitate our change in relationship with Him.



 2009/6/24 8:23









 Re:

Someone I knew hung themselves 2 nights ago.

I often think of my own death.

Yet, so many people that are supposed to be minsters, can't minster to me.

What do I need to do to be saved for sure?

Why is this so complex and confusing?

Where I go for eternity is the most important thing and yet I can't find anyone who can show me how to be saved.

I've asked God many times to make me a real Christian if I'm not.

I've asked Him many times to save me if I'm not.

I've told Him many times that I'm afraid to die and afraid of hell.

Yet, nothing changes. I still think I'm not a Christian and not saved. I'm scared to die and scared of hell.

I don't know what to do.

 2009/6/24 16:39
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

paulmcg1 wrote:
Someone I knew hung themselves 2 nights ago.

I often think of my own death.

Yet, so many people that are supposed to be minsters, can't minster to me.

What do I need to do to be saved for sure?

Why is this so complex and confusing?

Where I go for eternity is the most important thing and yet I can't find anyone who can show me how to be saved.

I've asked God many times to make me a real Christian if I'm not.

I've asked Him many times to save me if I'm not.

I've told Him many times that I'm afraid to die and afraid of hell.

Yet, nothing changes. I still think I'm not a Christian and not saved. I'm scared to die and scared of hell.

I don't know what to do.




I am sorry about your friend, I will pray for you, it is hard to know exactly what to share, but i feel i want to say some things, where do you go? you know the answer, you go to God, repentance is not total victory at one moment, some things we may have to repent from til the day we die, fight it and overcome them gradually, but repentance is not only outward or inward stopping something that is sinfull, it is a change of mind. To change our mind about a sin, from loving it, or just dont care to change that mindset to have the mind of Christ to hate it, to despise that sin, behavior or whatever it is, you may still be "defeated" by it so often, but you can repent today and change your mind about it, even if you will not se the victory of it in many years to come, it might not sound so encuraging, but we need to fight the fight, run the race, i for so long sought for a "once" experience that would once and for all give me victory in some areas, that i wouldent have to fight any more, that i would be free from this thing, i believe and have personal experience from such "freedom" in certain areas, but in others God showed me that we need daily take up our cross, every day on this earth fight, every day die in a sense. Some has pointed out we are dead already and it is very true, myself have not entered into that "fullness" of death by faith, watchmans nees book "the normal christian life deals much with this, i cant say i am there yet.

But i am determined to come there by his grace, and as far your concern i can say wheter you are a christian or not, if you are you must deal with some things, fear is not healthy for you in the sense you are expressing it here, God loves you as he loves Jesus.... read that verse in John... it will remove your fears, do you need assurance look to christ, does his work on the cross , his deatj? his perfect sacrifice suffice for your sins? you know they do, you need to trust Christ, not yourself, do you believe Christ rose from the death? defeated death? do you have faith in that? then death has lost its edge towards you....

you need not fear death or hell. I know these may just be words for you, but i recommend you read the scriptures again, read them as you read them the first time, pray a refreshing from above would penetrate and open your eyes anew.

God is able to save top the uttermost all who come to HIM.

go to him.....


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/6/24 17:00Profile
alan4jc
Member



Joined: 2007/8/15
Posts: 190
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Paul, just believe the gospel. It is that simple. Wanting to feel saved is a tricky thing since our emotions are very unreliable. Also I would suggest against looking at other peoples salvation stories and comparing yours to theirs. I also would suggest remembering that God remembers your sin no more and does not count it against you. The Devil wants you to believe that perfect actions are evidence of salvation. That is simply not the case at all. You know you are saved because God is not a liar. He will not refuse those who believe the gospel.


_________________
Alan Taylor

 2009/6/24 17:35Profile









 Re: a question about repentance and faith



Hello paulmcg1,

I too, am sorry to hear about your friend. One feels shakey when this kind of news arrives.

What hmmhmm has said is very good. I don't want to add to it, although it may look as if I am.

What I want to say is, that this morning when I was writing a post, and looking at the beginning of Romans 10, I was struck by v 4 - For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that [u]believeth[/u].

When my mother died, I understood something about the finality of death, which I had never quite grasped about the death of Jesus. The disciples really did think He was never coming back. Although He had told them He would rise again on the third day, more than once, they simply could not understand what this meant.

Likewise, for us to [u]understand[/u] that the death of Jesus Christ really took our sins to the grave, conquered death and destroyed the devil, and that that amazing feat need be acknowledged by us only through [i]faith[/i], genuinely stops the natural man/mind in its tracks. 1 Cor 1:21 God has determined that we cannot be saved without faith. There is nothing we can do about that. He's made it non-negotiable, by ensuring He Himself cannot be found through natural wisdom - that fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - that tree to which He himself laid the axe to its root.

Then, because He was sinless (apart from the sin He bore [i]for[/i] us), He rose again, and still the disciples were unsure how to deal with Him. He would arrive saying Do not fear, or, Peace to you, and they hardly dare believe it really was the Jesus they had lived with for over three years.

Equally a challenge to the natural mind, is for us to 'get' that all He accomplished 2000 years ago, is ours for no money, no toil, no deal - except .... we believe.

But I promise you that God LOVES FAITH. If you read the gospels looking at how Jesus responded when people would not 'believe', you see it was the one thing that made Him angry or utterly exasperated. In turn, [u]if[/u] we believe, He will give you such a certain peace, you cannot doubt that it is from Him.

However, He knows when you are being wholehearted and single-eyed, and will coax you along until you can joyfully throw yourself into His arms on His terms for the free gift of His life. If you have asked Him to save you many times before, that's okay. It is okay to refresh your commitment to Him every day. It is okay to be filled with the Spirit every day. It is okay to repent seven times a day to only one person (never mind the others you've upset) because Jesus said so - knowing that some of us sometimes will have to do just that, and there is a commensurate need for forgiveness to be forthcoming from us to our fellow man, as we desire God to forgive us whenever we feel the need of His grace in this.

The battling that hmmhmm mentioned is here, in 2 Cor 10:3, 4, 5, 6.

I don't know if you've listened to the other audios I've posted earlier in the thread, but although it is quite long, I really do recommend Paul Washer's [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=16678]The True Gospel[/url]. It's on video on youtube as well.

I repeat what Alan Martin said in his talk True Salvation: The Righteousness of God in Man - 'you've been looking at your flesh'. This will not help us to have faith. There is a need to look away from ourselves, to the Lord, knowing that if something matters to us (like your salvation does to you), then it matters to Him.

Years ago, I was very comforted to hear GW North say something along these lines 'Don't you realise He has fought all your battles for you? The victory is already won!' Somehow, those words enabled me to rest in that truth. You'll find it here:

Isaiah 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. 2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins. 3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see [it] together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].

comfortably = to the heart

These are the verses quoted by John the Baptist in Luke 3:4, 5, 6. Mark 1:1, 2, 3, 4. Psa 118:19

He is your Deliverer.

Read about king David. Often he went into battle. praising the Lord. We also must find a way to 'stand still, and see the salvation of God' - to stop fretting.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


Please encourage your own heart with the truth of God's written word, knowing it is but one manifestation of the whole word of God in Jesus Christ. John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.



EDIT: I'm not saying you're not saved, but salvation is in three tenses - was, is and will be. The 'being saved' every day, is where we have to live. Today is the day of salvation ... every day. 2 Cor 6:2

 2009/6/24 17:51
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: A question about repentance and grace

Quote:
paulmcg1 wrote:
he Bible says that we're by grace through faith and not of ourselves. When I read elsewhere in the Bible though, we're told to repent. For example, "...unless you repent, you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).

How is it that we must repent and yet we're saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves? It seems to me that if we're required to repent, then it isn't much of grace.


It is very much of Grace!!!
Grace is not a license to sin, therefore, repentance must be in order for grace to be applyed.
The grace is that there is a way for you to be forgiven.

The one being atoned for must change in order for him to be forgiven. He must first meet the set conditions in order for the atonement to be applied for the forgiveness; these requirements (or “set conditions”) are faith in what Christ has said & done and [b]repentance[/b] to prove the faith to be real and genuine.
This proves that the one being atoned for understands the true value of the one who is forgiving and that he can not take this whole thing lightly.
If one refuses to acknowledge the true value and worth of God and refuses to meet the set conditions in order to be forgiven; if he takes lightly all that God has said and done to forgive, he can not be forgiven.(Matthew 18:23-35, John 15:8)

The atonement is an influence on ones heart/soul. The selfless, loving sacrifice on our account is to break the heart of the sinner and cause him to acknowledge his sin and the judgment of his sin. A revelation of the suffering of Christ should break and subdue ones heart and bring him to complete surrender to God. The atonement should so affect our hearts that we turn from our disobedience in humble, sincere, and deep repentance, repenting out of a motive of love, remorse, and sincerity; this is [b]repentance[/b].

God is drawing all men to Himself through the atonement (John. 12:32), and it is His loving kindness (grace) which draws us (Jer.31:3; Rom. 2:4). The Atonement transforms and liberates through reciprocation, men obey the gospel of Jesus Christ from the heart (repentance) because God was loving them all along, from the beginning.

Quote:
Another issue I'm having that is somewhat related is in 1st John.
I don't understand how it can say "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us" (1 john 1:8) and at the same time also go on to say, "No one who is born of God practices sin..." 1 john 3:9.

[url=http://www.brojed.org/newboard/Posts/50111H.html]Read this for an explaination to this verse.[/url]
[b]Exapmle:[/b]
Point #5. If 1John 1:8 means that nobody can state that Jesus Christ has cleansed them from all sin, then saying that you have experienced 1John 1:9 makes you a liar.

Quote:
I also don't understand why Scripture will use the word "practice." How many times can I sin and in how long of a period of time before I'm in the zone of "practicing a sin"?

Another word for that would be "habitual"
If you have a habit of sinning, then you are practicing it.
Habits are not uncontrolable, as part of the "Fruit of the Spirit" is self control.

All sin is willfull, there is no such thing as, "oops! I sinned"

Don't confuse human weakness/frailty with sin;
if you can't help it, it is not a sin.

Quote:
I really want to take scripture in it's plain meaning but when I do, I run into these walls and I hate it.

It is a good thing by asking.

Quote:
If only I could believe I was going to heaven because I'm saved by grace through faith, I'd be so happy.

All you must do is beleive in and on Jesus Christ, what He said & done.
Our salvaltion is not a "thing", but a relationship with the Father through Jesus (Johnn 17:3).

Our assurance of salvation is the relationship we have with the Father through Jesus; and we know that we have this relationship if we love.

 2009/6/24 20:04Profile









 Re: A question about repentance and grace


Logic said

Quote:
Don't confuse human weakness/frailty with sin;
if you can't help it, it is not a sin.

This statement is at variance with much of New Testament scripture, which makes clear that victory over sin is mandatory as a testimony of our relationship with Jesus, which you very well describe.

And if our bodies have been deadened by the experiences of sin, or sins against us, there is hope for our restoration in this verse: Rom 8:11.

Yes, the flesh is weak, but it is not - as you already said - uncontrollable. This is clear from 2 Cor 10:3 - 6. Victory over sin is a matter of applying the death of Jesus Christ to ourselves - Paul the apostle calls it 'reckon yourselves dead' (to sin), and to the world. Gal 2:20. Often a battle in the mind, and with pride, and more often with bondage and demons, precedes our capitulation to God's provision in this area of our living.

Lastly, 'bondage' has a spiritual component. It's not merely that the flesh is weak. True, the Holy Spirit is stronger than any demon, but, often a demon's mindset has become our own, at a time when we didn't recognise certain throughts as temptation, or sinful. Some evil spirits will go on their own, if we receive more and more of the life of Christ into conscious daily living, but others need to be sent away by the command of one who has spiritual authority to use the name of Jesus effectively, before the Holy Spirit can [u]fill[/u] and heal that part of the person's life, such that the temptation loses its power, and the sin ceases almost effortlessly (but not without our conscious co-operation with God in the matter).

If every natural effort has been made to control a certain behaviour, there is [u]no[/u] shame in asking a more mature Christian (an elder or experieinced minister), for appropriate prayer to be released from bondage. This should not be an occasion which leads to greater bondage. If it does, then it may indicate the person who prayed lacks spiritual authority, despite having a 'position' in the church. Therefore, use some spiritual intelligence, and ask God from whom to request prayer. Don't let just anyone lay hands on your head either, as this can be a way to [i]receive[/i] and evil spirit, if that person is not in evident fellowship with God.

What is evidence of fellowship with God? That's another post.

 2009/6/25 0:24









 Re:

Dear Brother Paul, may Our Savior be with you and may our prayers comfort you. The only advice I can give is try to keep this simple. I wasn't saved by doctrine and I'm glad that I didn't know the debates thereof. This sounds like a deep spiritual battle that involves fear. I think the honest pleading, seeking, and crying out to God is the raw sincerity of heart that doctrine cannot lend to. Quite simply Jesus Himself promises this in Matt 7:7-8

7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Also, I have been comforted in times of struggle by reading the struggles of David in Psalms with God's mercy not far behind. He was a man after God's own heart yet had the same groanings as you at times. David was never forsaken, neither will you be. The Holy Spirit documents David's struggle for a reason, let it be known that a man after God's own heart groaned as you groan. Fear is a terrible thing, it can grip you and try to hold you... fear of hell can be a natural tendency but instead of focusing on the fear of your eternal state, let me humbly suggest that you put that aside and seek God for Him. Seek Him because you love Him and desperately want Him to be your life, your truth, your way... seek Him because you want nothing more than to know Him intimately in His Son. Wanting to know God implies you do not want to offend Him and He knows this. Take comfort, people here are praying and I will put your name on every prayer list I can think of.....those who I know are earnest lovers of souls. Let go of your intellectual confusion on doctrine, the bible promises that the Spirit will lead you to all truth. Let go of your own strength to figure this out and trust the simple promises that help is on the way. We love you Paul.... we love you!!! God loves you. This is a struggle many a man/woman have dealt with... you are not alone.

 2009/6/25 8:15





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