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 Where do you find THIS Walter?

you wrote:

Quote:
Of all of the sins that there are to commit, apostasy is the unpardonable sin.



Chapter and verse please.

Now, Praise God, I am very aware of what Jesus said in Matthew 12:31-32

"31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come".

Now thats the ESV, since I am [b]well[/b] that you regard anything (or anyone) that reads from any other Bible version than the KJV as compromised , backslidden, or insert whatever other adjective you desire to cast a fellow follower of Jesus into a "less-than" status in the Eyes of God,, so I will quote from the KJV, the same Passage:

31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Matthew 12:31-32 (KJV)

Now please, tell me where the Word says that

Quote:
Of all of the sins that there are to commit, apostasy is the unpardonable sin.



I am sure you will try to exegete your way from the word "apostasy" to the unpardonable sin of blaspheming the Holy Ghost, but no where in the Word is their such a statement.

I had no intention of entering into this thread, simply because these threads are not for building up the Body, nor edification, but when I read that statement of yours, God spoke quite clearly to me, and said, "Speak out". and I'm doing that.

That is [b]wrong[/b] teaching, plain and simple.

You can bombard this thread refuting that, but it is wrong to say that "apostasy" (and I might add, your opinion of apostasy) is the unpardonable sin.

Come on Walter, quit this, this isnt right. Now if you have a burden on your heart to prophesy, who am i to say what a man or woman's burden is?

But please, for the Love of Jesus, and the Ministry of Messiah Crucified, you got to stop this, pray on it, please.

humbly and in His love I entreat you, neil



 2009/6/18 11:55









 Re:

Quote:
I hope your children will never depart but is this what you would say if any of these young people were "YOUR" child or children?



Yes, it is... because it is what God's Word says.

Quote:
It seems that your reply is just cold-hearted, brother; especially those who will be reading this that have children who have departed (for what ever reason).



Don't pass judgement on me (calling me cold hearted) when you know nothing about me... and in the same breath call me "brother". Save that smiley face type stuff for Sunday morning.

As for those whose children have departed, I truly sympathize, however God's Word is pretty clear. What your assuming is that I am writing off anyone who "walks away" which I am not. If they depart from us then scripture tells us it is because they were never of us... and I would rather have someone depart so that we know they still need salvation than to have kids who need salvation fake for decades and die in their sins. At least this way we know where they stand, and can take the appropriate measures to make sure they hear the truth and get saved.

Quote:
Jesus said, if they depart, they will return and He did not say how much time and space there would be in between departing and returning.



What?? Jesus said this? Where? Chapter & verse, please.

I think you're referring to Proverbs 22:6, and if so it was Solomon who said it, not Jesus. And I would recommend you do some studying on this to see what this verse really means.

Here's is what Matthew Henry's commentary says:

[i]Here is, 1. A great duty enjoined, particularly to those that are the parents and instructors of children, in order to the propagating of wisdom, that it may not die with them: Train up children in that age of vanity, to keep them from the sins and snares of it, in that learning age, to prepare them for what they are designed for. Catechise them; initiate them; keep them under discipline. Train them as soldiers, who are taught to handle their arms, keep rank, and observe the word of command. Train them up, not in the way they would go (the bias of their corrupt hearts would draw them aside), but in the way they should go, the way in which, if you love them, you would have them go. Train up a child according as he is capable (as some take it), with a gentle hand, as nurses feed children, little and often, Deu_6:7. 2. A good reason for it, taken from the great advantage of this care and pains with children: When they grow up, when they grow old, [b]it is to be hoped[/b], they will not depart from it. Good impressions made upon them then will abide upon them all their days. Ordinarily the vessel retains the savour with which it was first seasoned. Many indeed have departed from the good way in which they were trained up; Solomon himself did so. But early training may be a means of their recovering themselves, as it is supposed Solomon did. At least the parents will have the comfort of having done their duty and used the means.[/i]

This is not speaking about salvation! This has everything to do with child rearing and discipline... it has to do with godly instruction & wisdom. All things which can lead to true salvation, but not necessarily.

This verse is not a promise that if your child professes salvation when they're young that they will never walk away. [b]There is a difference between professing salvation... and being saved![/b] This was written thousands of years before Christ, so how could this be addressing someone who professed salvation thru Christ? It isnt.

Context, Lysa.

The other thing is this... most so-called "Christian" parents in the church today are not raising their children up in the way they should go. They take them to church, put them in worldly sinful youth groups led by some dude who doesnt have teenagers of his own. At home they dont teach their children the Bible, systematic theology, or even how to pray. They dont get involved in ministries to the homeless, lost or missions with their kids. Instead they all sit and watch TV, surf the internet all evening or play Guitar Hero.

...and then they cry because their children walked away from the faith! Well, duh!

According to scripture (and God said this, not me... so call Him cold hearted, ok!) if you have [b]truly[/b] been saved then you will [b]NOT[/b] walk away!

Simple as that.

I would highly recommend you download and listen to some Paul Washer sermons. Start with "Examine Yourself" and "Ten Indictments".

Please provide for me where Jesus said what you said He said.

Krispy

 2009/6/18 12:52
dunlow64God
Member



Joined: 2008/5/6
Posts: 61


 Re:

WOW!!! :-o Flow, Holy Spirit, Flow! And may I also add OUCH!!! Thanks for that Krispy...I needed to hear it! Proud mother of a teenager. And may I also add his youth leader! :-) I also have 3 other youngins 8, 7, and 5. You hit the nail on the head! Thanks for those words! God really used you to reach me today! Hallelujah!
In Christ,
Wendy

 2009/6/18 14:59Profile









 Re:

Well... praise God! I said nothing in anger at anyone, it's just a heavy burden I have for the American church concerning it's youth.

Krispy

 2009/6/18 15:37
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7463
Mississippi

 Re: History lesson continues

Ok, now back to the 1960s, the era of time when I was a teen. To refresh your memory my generation has apostatized badly. Most are still decent, good folks but they have discarded the truth of the word for one that is more comfortable to one's carnal nature.

My generation had a lot of skilled, talented fellows. They were good public speakers, possessed great leadership skills which were admired by their peers as well as their superiors. These fellows were given positions of leadership wherever they happened to be. They were well trained in Bible, having either attended Bible Schools/Institute or church colleges. These fellows intimidated the less talented by virtue of their skills.

The era of the 60s was a turbulent time for our country. Rebellion was given a new status of respectability by being taken seriously by their superiors. The older ones listened to them, dialoged with them and surrendered to their 'concerns'. So, it happened in the church, in my own denomination.

Conflict between generations is nothing new - always has been. But it seems as though what happened in the 60s and the ensuing years is that rebellion has been given a new respectability because the youth have acquired skills in debating that will leave an older person even questioning his own convictions.

What did this generation do? They have followed a path of humanitarianism: that of getting involved in a social gospel sans the true gospel of repentance from sin.

And their children? they are bedeviled by all kinds of sins....

This is my observation from life...

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2009/6/18 16:54Profile
rainydaygirl
Member



Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742


 Re:

SO I have thought about this thread for a a few days and thought I would throw my thoughts into the mix. I don't know why most of the youth leave the church(structure) today but I can tell you why I did. I attended the youth group at our local church where one of the young guys who helped lead was dating or had dated most of the older teen girls in the group at one time or another. He liked to think of himself as a player. He was really cool and he use to have spitting contest and food fights with the guys. They would goof off and see who could be the grossest. We would meet on Sunday morning and again on Wednesday nights. Sundays were filled with some kind of seeker friendly teaching that would appeal to everyone. The teaching would be followed by some time of worship. Usually groups like Switch foot, News Boys, or Five Iron Frenzy would be played. After that we would break up into smaller groups and just hang out. There were a lot of clicks, and usually girlfriends and boyfriends would hang out together. On Wednesday nights we had our mid week get together that was suppose to consist of equipping us to walk in the Lord. Most Wednesday nights were actually nothing more then movie nights. The leading would bring in DVD, popcorn and sodas and we watched movies. In the summertime we had water fights and goofed off outside if it was to hot or no new movies were out. We never really studied the Bible, all the teachings that were done came from a handout sheet. Prayer was pretty much non existant, and accoutability was handled like the latest gossip. It was all about who was with who, and what they were doing. That last year that I was there, three of the girls I know got pregnant. Two of the guys got into trouble for drug use. As for me, I left because as "fun" as all that partying was a times, I learned nothing about Jesus. I was given no guidance, and I knew that if I did not leave I would end up just as watered down and worldly as the rest of the group was. I wanted Jesus not the world, so I walked away from that church(structure). Now to make things clear, I will never walk away from the true church(the body of believers who follow Jesus), just don't want anything to do with the country club...I mean local structure that calls itself church.

Not sure why others are leaving but that is why I did.
rdg

edit: Krispy said "The other thing is this... most so-called "Christian" parents in the church today are not raising their children up in the way they should go. They take them to church, put them in worldly sinful youth groups led by some dude who doesnt have teenagers of his own. At home they dont teach their children the Bible, systematic theology, or even how to pray. They dont get involved in ministries to the homeless, lost or missions with their kids. Instead they all sit and watch TV, surf the internet all evening or play Guitar Hero.
...and then they cry because their children walked away from the faith! Well, duh!"
______

I have to say that this was the case at the church that I went to.
Somethings in what you said to really think about.
rdg

 2009/6/18 17:40Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3393
East TN (for now)

 Re: Brother Krispy

Quote:
Quote:
Lysa wrote:
I hope your children will never depart but is this what you would say if any of these young people were "YOUR" child or children?


Quote:
Krispy wrote:
Yes, it is... because it is what God's Word says.



I [b]never[/b] questioned God's word, Krispy and wrong or right, I was questioning you.

I believe that we can always say, "It's what the God's word says!" The letter alone kills but it's the spirit that gives life (2 Cor 3.5-6). We are supposed to be ministers of the new testament by the spirit not just the letter.

And just for the record, I didn't call you cold-hearted. I find it interesting that I remember specifically trying to word it so it didn't sound like I was calling you cold-hearted! So I apologize if you still feel that I did.

Quote:
Quote:
Lysa wrote:
Jesus said, if they depart, they will return and He did not say how much time and space there would be in between departing and returning.



Quote:
Krispy wrote:
What?? Jesus said this? Where? Chapter & verse, please.



You are correct, Jesus didn't say it; I don't know what I was thinking and I can't believe someone else hadn't already pointed it out! They sure should have.

About verse Prov 22.6... I [b]KNOW[/b] it doesn't guarantee salvation but it does give those of us who are trying to raise our children right... [b]hope[/b].

Quote:
According to scripture ... if you have truly been saved then you will NOT walk away!


All seriousness aside... We'll save this one for another discussion!! And just for you (all in good fun), here's my Sunday smiley faces.... ;-) 8-) :-) LOL

God bless you Krispy!


_________________
Lisa

 2009/6/18 18:40Profile









 Re: Why are Young People Leaving the Church?

The promise is this, "

Quote:
Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

He may leave the physical church and seek a career and adopt many foolish teachings, but as he gets older those things will fall away as that which he has learnt at a young age pushes all the garbage that he once stood for while he was away from the truth. I left the Church before I was twenty and took on many stupid things, but the LORD got a hold of me as I was approaching my 40's and shook me and turned my world upside down. THAT SEED IS GOD'S INVESTMENT, it will never be wasted. Yes, that seed may fall on rocky ground, but eventually that seed will be buried by years of overgrowth and may in the latter years of it's life come to faith in Jesus Christ. Yes the seed can be eaten up by the birds, but survives the painful process of digestion gets dropped off in another location to grow in it's own fertilizer. Lets not lose faith in what and how that seed is spread. The seed will grow one way or another, even if it's in a place where we think there is no earth.

We must keep this in our minds, it's the gardener, the husbandman that takes care of the seed, he plants it, he tends to it. If it doesn't sprout, does he take out the seed from the ground? Certainly not! He just leaves it there, eventually something will come of it when the right elements have been applied. It may take years for anything to happen and most of us will have given up all hope for salvation, I think when that happens things begin to change.

God is faithful, I trust Him to be faithful, because we certainly are not. If we are found faithful, it has to be the Christ in us that is doing it.

God Bless You All.

 2009/6/18 23:03









 Re: It is Found In the Word, of Course!



Dear Neil (Natan4Jesus):

You stated:

Quote:
[b] Of all of the sins that there are to commit, apostasy is the unpardonable sin.

Chapter and verse please.

You can bombard this thread refuting that, but it is wrong to say that "apostasy" (and I might add, your opinion of apostasy) is the unpardonable sin.

Come on Walter, quit this, this isnt right. Now if you have a burden on your heart to prophesy, who am i to say what a man or woman's burden is?

But please, for the Love of Jesus, and the Ministry of Messiah Crucified, you got to stop this, pray on it, please.

humbly and in His love I entreat you, neil
[/b]


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


[b]My Pastor, Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, CA. has always taught that the rejection of Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior IS the unpardonable sin.


What does the Bible teach, what does the Bible say about this issue in it's entirety?[/b]

[color=990000]In Matthew 12[/color] there is a story of a demon possessed, blind and mute man who was brought to Jesus and Jesus healed him. The pharisees heard of this healing and said that Jesus had casts out the demons by Beelzebub; the ruler of demons. ( satan himself). In other words, they said that Jesus did his work by the power of satan rather than God.

Basically they were calling evil good, and good evil and had refused to accept that Jesus was the coming messiah. This meant that their sin was the rejection of Jesus Christ as the promised messiah. They were rejecting The Way to eternal life. This meant that by choice, they were outside of God's saving grace.

Jesus responded with a series of logical statements that exposed the absurdity of their accusations. To summarize these arguments:

1. It’s against Satan’s interests to cast his own demons out because it divides his kingdom

2. If Jesus exercised demons by Beelzebul, then by whom did the sons of Israel cast them out?

3. If in fact the source of Jesus’ power was divine, then God’s kingdom was present. The unstated implication being that they should repent

Jesus concludes this rebuttal with a parable (Matthew 12:29). A strong man cannot be robbed unless he is first bound. In an ironic twist, Jesus symbolized the thief in this parable, and Satan the strong man. In effect, Jesus plundered Satan’s kingdom by robbing him of a demon possessed victim.

The messianic prophecy in[color=990000] Isaiah 49:24-26 illuminates this parable:[/color]
24. Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered? 25. But thus saith the Lord,[b][color=990000] Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away[/color][/b], and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, [b][color=990000] and I will save thy (your) children. [/color][/b]
26. And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that [b][color=990000] I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, [/color][/b], the mighty One of Jacob.


[b]Mark’s Account

Up to this point, Matthews account provides most of the prelude to this teaching. Following Jesus’ statements about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, Mark adds an insightful explanation that reveals Jesus’ motive for introducing the subject, “because they were saying, ‘He has an unclean Spirit’” (Mark 3:30).

This remark correlates with the previous accusations from Matthew 12:24 and Mark 3:22. Jesus’ critics had accused him of having an unclean spirit. As Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:38), this was a slanderous accusation indeed.

[color=990000]In 1st John 5:16 [/color]John advised Christians not to pray for one who commits a sin “leading to death.”

[color=990000]In Hebrews 6:4-8 [/color]Paul, discussing fallen Christians, stated it was “impossible to renew them to repentance.”

These verses point to the obvious conclusion that sin which is not repented of is not forgiven. Furthermore, one can become hardened to the truth beyond the point of repentance. For such a person penitence is unthinkable.[/b]

Of course all have sinned (Romans 3:23). Even the most faithful stumble (1st John 1:8). Yet those who walk in the light, even though they occasionally stumble, are cleansed by the blood of Jesus (1st John 1:7).[/b]

[color=990000]Hardening of the Heart

Hardening of the heart is a progressive process. Sin grieves the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30). Repeated sin, without repentance, sears one’s conscience and eventually hardens one into resisting the Holy Spirit (1st Timothy 4:2, Acts 7:51).

The hardened person exchanges the truth of God for a lie (Romans 1:25); resulting in God giving such a one up to his own impurity and depraved mind (Romans 1:24, 28). One so hardened receives a spirit of stupor, having closed eyes and deafened ears to the truth (Romans 11:8, Matthew 13:14-15).[/color]

[b][color=990000]Insulting the Spirit of grace, the hardened one ultimately disregards the blood of Christ – the only source of redemption (Hebrews 10:29, Romans 5:9, Ephesians 1:7, Colossians 1:14, 1st Peter 1:18-19).

The hardened person, whose final response to the Spirit of truth is one of rejection, never receives forgiveness because he never repents. The sin leads to eternal death because it’s never confessed. Un-repented sins of one walking in darkness are never pardoned.[/color][/b]

[b]Contents of the Heart

After discussing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, Jesus said, “ O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh” (Matthew 12:34). A man’s words reveal his spiritual condition. One who outwardly speaks against the Holy Spirit has inwardly rejected the testimony of the Holy Spirit. The verbal rejection reveals the inward rejection.[/b]

[b][color=990000]Jesus’ warning, “for by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned,” ring true because words reveal the contents of the heart (Matthew 12:35-37). [/color][/b]

[b]Mission of the Holy Spirit[/b]

The Holy Spirit was sent to convict the world of sin, and bring men to Christ, whom he glorified (John 16:7-15). One who rejects the Spirit’s testimony of Christ, rejects the only grounds for forgiveness. Final, utterly complete rejection of Christ and the testimony of the Holy Spirit results in eternal death.

[b]Doctrinal scholars interpret blasphemy against the Holy Spirit not as one sin, but as a class of sins that are spiritually fatal. Sin leads to spiritual death (Romans 5:12, 6:16, James 1:15). Paul wrote, “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life (Romans 6:23). Un-repented sin is spiritually fatal. [/b]

[color=990000]Doctrinal Conclusion

A TRUE Christian who utters a rash statement in an unbelieving moment can be forgiven IF he repents. According to 1st John 1:9, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from unrighteousness.”

The Christian who does this does not have a seared conscience. His own words of confession reveal that his heart is not hardened to the truth. A true believer, born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit cannot lose their salvation.

They can fail, they can sin, they can backslide, yet, all their sins were paid for at Calvary. All they need to do is turn again to Jesus. No TRUE BELIEVER can Blaspheme God because All their sins were forgiven when they came to Jesus Christ. However, like Krispy indicated, only God knows who comes to Him in true belief, and the others that do not, and only mimic and repeat the sinners prayer.

If we have sons and daughters who once professed Christ, but have since walked away, we should continue to pray for them, that Christ would wrench them from darkness to light. Christ is the only One who knows the heart, the only one who knows if they are real or false Christians, if they are sheep or goats.[/color]

[b][color=990000]What is the definition of Apostacy? Websters 1828 Dictionary states:

APOS'TASY, n. [Gr. a defection, to depart.]
1. An abandonment of what one has professed; a total desertion, or departure from one's faith or religion.

2. The desertion from a party to which one has adhered.

3. Among physicians, the throwing off of exfoliated or fractured bone, or the various solution of disease.

4. An abscess.

APOS'TATE, n. [Gr.]

One who has forsaken the church, sect or profession to which he before adhered. In its original sense, applied to one who has abandoned his religion; but correctly applied also to one who abandons a political or other party.

APOS'TATE, a. False; traitorous.

APOSTAT'ICAL, a. After the manner of an apostate.

APOS'TATIZE, v.i. To abandon one's profession or church; to forsake principles or faith which one has professed; or the party to which one has been attached.

APOS'TATIZING, ppr. Abandoning a church, profession, sect or party.[/color][/b]

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

[size=x-small][b][color=993300]Neil, you also said the following:.[/color][/size][/b]

Quote:

[b]I had no intention of entering into this thread, simply because these threads are not for building up the Body, nor edification, but when I read that statement of yours, God spoke quite clearly to me, and said, "Speak out". and I'm doing that.[/b]



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[size=x-small][b][color=993300]Neil, my response to you is the SAME as it has been from the BEGINNING of your entry on Sermonindex. It is not necessarily God that has access to your heart. You and I do not have the Holy Spirit without measure, like Christ did. We have it with measure. What you have quoted above, that God spoke quite clearly to you to speak out AGAINST what I posted was NOT FROM GOD.[u] It was either from your Flesh or Satan.[/u]

I have quoted what God has to say about this matter through His Word. You would do well to rely on His Word, as well, and if you "hear" anything from "God",[u] check it out with His Word before you make any foolish public statements, that go hand in hand with false prophecy, AND ACTUALLY OPPOSE HIS WORD.[/u][/color][/size][/b]


Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

Natan4Jesus wrote:
you wrote:

Quote:
Of all of the sins that there are to commit, apostasy is the unpardonable sin.



Chapter and verse please.

Now, Praise God, I am very aware of what Jesus said in Matthew 12:31-32

"31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come".

Now thats the ESV, since I am [b]well[/b] that you regard anything (or anyone) that reads from any other Bible version than the KJV as compromised , backslidden, or insert whatever other adjective you desire to cast a fellow follower of Jesus into a "less-than" status in the Eyes of God,, so I will quote from the KJV, the same Passage:

31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Matthew 12:31-32 (KJV)

Now please, tell me where the Word says that

Quote:
Of all of the sins that there are to commit, apostasy is the unpardonable sin.



I am sure you will try to exegete your way from the word "apostasy" to the unpardonable sin of blaspheming the Holy Ghost, but no where in the Word is their such a statement.

I had no intention of entering into this thread, simply because these threads are not for building up the Body, nor edification, but when I read that statement of yours, God spoke quite clearly to me, and said, "Speak out". and I'm doing that.

That is [b]wrong[/b] teaching, plain and simple.

You can bombard this thread refuting that, but it is wrong to say that "apostasy" (and I might add, your opinion of apostasy) is the unpardonable sin.

Come on Walter, quit this, this isnt right. Now if you have a burden on your heart to prophesy, who am i to say what a man or woman's burden is?

But please, for the Love of Jesus, and the Ministry of Messiah Crucified, you got to stop this, pray on it, please.

humbly and in His love I entreat you, neil





 2009/6/18 23:35
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7463
Mississippi

 Re:

rdg,

Sister, God has his hand on you...you believe that, don't you? There is no other reason for you to have escaped this party unscathed...

Blessings,
ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2009/6/18 23:40Profile





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