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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Doctrine of Election ala Spurgeon

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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
tjservant wrote:

God does not say that He foreknew the decisions that individuals would make, but rather, He foreknew the individuals themselves.

God knows everyone so very well that He knows the thoughtsnand intents of the heart, which includes desisions which anyony will make.

Quote:
As we have seen, the common Arminian explanation of foreknowledge is that God foreknows those who would believe. That is, He foresees that some will trust in Christ and some will not, and then predestines on that basis. However, upon a close reading of Rom. 8:29 we see that this is simply not what the text says.

Sure it does, if you know the extent to how HE (fore)knows.

Quote:
Notice who or what is foreknown. Is it a decision? Is it a quality, such as faith? No! Rather, it is a person. An individual is known. Paul is making a relational statement. God foreknows persons, not merely events or decisions.

Not merely, but His foreknowledg does know those aspects.

How is anyone elected in the first place?
The one elected must meat the requirements for election.
No one is ever elected for no reason at all.

Any criteria to elect must be apart from one's own bias, election must be made from qualities of the candidate, weather or not the candidate is qualified or not.

The criteria which makes one qualified for God's election are faith with repentance; these are nothing to boast in, for they are all mankinds reasonable service (what they are supposed to do in the first place) Luke 17:9 & Luke 17:10

Quote:
What we find in this passage is that those to whom Paul refers to as "the called" and those who Paul says were foreknown by God, are the same ones who were predestined by God. In each link of this golden chain, we have men portrayed as the passive recipients of God's gracious action.

No one is a "pasive" recipients of God's gracious action.

The one being atoned for must change in order for him to be forgiven!
He must first meet the set conditions in order for the atonement to be applied for the forgiveness; these requirements (or “set conditions”) are faith in what Christ has said & done and repentance to prove the faith to be real and genuine.
This proves that the one being atoned for understands the true value of the one who is forgiving and that he can not take this whole thing lightly.
If one refuses to acknowledge the true value and worth of God by refusing to meet the set conditions in order to be forgiven; if he takes lightly all that God has said and done to forgive, he can not be forgiven.(Matthew 18:23-35, John 15:8)

The atonement ("God's gracious action") is an influence on ones heart/soul. The selfless, loving sacrifice on our account is to break the heart of the sinner and cause him to acknowledge his sin and the judgment of his sin. A revelation of the suffering of Christ should break and subdue ones heart and bring him to complete surrender to God. The atonement should so affect our hearts that we turn from our disobedience in humble, sincere, and deep repentance, repenting out of a motive of love, remorse, and sincerity (1 John. 4:19). God is drawing all men to Himself through the atonement (John. 12:32), and it is His loving kindness (Grace) which draws us (Jer.31:3; Rom. 2:4).

The Atonement transforms and liberates through reciprocation, when men obey the gospel of Jesus Christ from the heart, God saves them.


Quote:
God calls them. God predestines them. He justifies them, and He glorifies them. If every subsequent link in the chain demonstrates God's activity and man's passivity, why shoul
d we think that the very first link in the chain, God's foreknowing, would portray precisely the opposite picture

Your mistake is thinking that man is passive in salvation.

Salvation is not a thing, but Jesus Christ Himself!
Our relationship with the Father through Christ is what saves us (gives us eternal lifeJohn 17:3)

Quote:
And so we see that the Arminian view of God's foreknowledge in relation to predestination crumbles in the face of both the linguistics and the grammar of the most crucial passage in the discussion.

I'm not Arminian.
My view does not "crumble"

 2009/6/17 14:59Profile









 Re:

Quote from the other thread.......


" Re: AW TOZER ON CALVINISM/ARMIANISM QUOTE?
I was preparing to go to Nyack College. Before I left there was one burning question I had in mind, and I went to Dr. Tozer and said, “Could you give me some advice concerning the problem of Calvinism versus Arminianism?”

And I’ll never forget the advice he gave me. At the time I thought it was rather inconclusive and not too helpful. But I listened carefully. He said, “My son, when you get to college you’re going to find that all of the boys will be gathered in a room discussing and arguing over Arminianism and Calvinism night after night after night. I’ll tell you what to do, Cliff. Go to your room and meet God. At the end of four years you’ll be way down the line and they’ll still be where they started, because greater minds than yours have wrestled with this problem and have not come up with satisfactory conclusions. Instead, learn to know God.”

“In Pursuit of God” – The Life of A.W. Tozer, James L. Snyder p132


Pretty convicting eh?

:-)

 2009/6/17 15:45
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:
Pretty convicting eh?



yes, especially coming from a man Leonard Ravenhill said the following about:

[i]Dr. Tozer told me as a mature man in his sixties that there where times when he lay on the rug for an hour, two hours, three hours, four hours and never uttered a word of prayer, and never uttered a word of praise. He said, "I'm lost in adoration, I see Him in His glory, in His majesty, in His beauty. I can hear those holy beings crying, 'Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord.'" And he said, "I'm silent in adoration before Him. I had no language, it is beggered." And he had a vocabulary as good as any man I know, and he had read more of the mystics, I think, than any man I know, and he had some of the closest encounters to God of any man I know.

Leonard Ravenhill[/i]


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2009/6/17 16:17Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
Your mistake is thinking that man is passive in salvation.



It is not my mistake. I did not wright the article. I included the source if you want to let him know how you feel.

Quote:
I'm not Arminian.



I know. Once again, I did not wright the article, I just included an excerpt in my post.

I am simply adding info to the thread.


**Edit**

I am done with this thread. I simply disagree with Mr. Logic's theology and ...logic. :-)


_________________
TJ

 2009/6/17 16:22Profile
donpjt
Member



Joined: 2005/2/1
Posts: 2


 Re:

I actually like this one by Spurgeon... Though it is not on election but on Particular Redemption this might suit this thread..

Quote:
We are often told that we limit the atonement of Christ, because we say that Christ has not made a satisfaction for all men, or all men would be saved. Now, our reply to this is, that, on the other hand, our opponents limit it: we do not. The Arminians say, Christ died for all men. Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, "No, certainly not." We ask them the next question—Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They answer "No." They are obliged to admit this, if they are consistent. They say, "No; Christ has died that any man may be saved if"—and then follow certain conditions of salvation. We say, then, we will go back to the old statement—Christ did not die so as beyond a doubt to secure the salvation of anybody, did He? You must say "No;" you are obliged to say so, for you believe that even after a man has been pardoned, he may yet fall from grace, and perish. Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why, you. You say that Christ did not die so as to infallibly secure the salvation of anybody. We beg your pardon, when you say we limit Christ's death; we say, "No, my dear sir, it is you that do it." We say Christ so died that He infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved but are saved, must be saved, and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved



Well, if Christ died so as to save the elect from all their sins, then even our unbelief is a sin. And if we are dead in our sins as Paul says in Romans, we cannot bring ourselves to Christ, but God has to enable us to come to Christ. And if it is God that enables a person to come to Christ, how can it be that the person chooses Christ? Its because God has enabled him and given him grace to see Christ in his beauty that he accepts the saviour. Not because he saw Christ by himself. So then if that act of coming to Christ can be done by man himself, then man has credit for his salvation, doesn't he? And does the Bible teach anywhere that man has any credit for salvation? "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you..." says Christ. So choosing is by Christ and not by man. And whatever we say when we come to Christ we always know it was not of our own will because we were dead in our sins and could not even think of loving God and his statutes. Its because God has given us a new heart instead of our heart of stone as he has promised. So it is not of our own doing but God's. If all you can see in yourself is nothing but a bad sinner, then I cannot understand how anyone can ever point fingers at God for being unjust at not saving others, but just live a life plasing to God out of love and gratitude for even loving us and being patient with us. And of course if he saved those who do not deserve to be saved, then God is just and gracious than we can imagine (because he has saved such poor sinners) and if that is who he is, then whether we can understand it or not, whatever he does flows out of his wisdom and we need not break our head over it, but just believe his word by faith. Thats all I can say...

 2009/6/25 10:14Profile
Friedrick
Member



Joined: 2004/8/19
Posts: 110
Nicaragua

 Re:

Quote:
Quote from the other thread.......


" Re: AW TOZER ON CALVINISM/ARMIANISM QUOTE?
I was preparing to go to Nyack College. Before I left there was one burning question I had in mind, and I went to Dr. Tozer and said, “Could you give me some advice concerning the problem of Calvinism versus Arminianism?”

And I’ll never forget the advice he gave me. At the time I thought it was rather inconclusive and not too helpful. But I listened carefully. He said, “My son, when you get to college you’re going to find that all of the boys will be gathered in a room discussing and arguing over Arminianism and Calvinism night after night after night. I’ll tell you what to do, Cliff. Go to your room and meet God. At the end of four years you’ll be way down the line and they’ll still be where they started, because greater minds than yours have wrestled with this problem and have not come up with satisfactory conclusions. Instead, learn to know God.”

“In Pursuit of God” – The Life of A.W. Tozer, James L. Snyder p132


Pretty convicting eh?



Very true. Good quote, thanks.


_________________
Joshua

 2009/6/25 11:05Profile





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