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Discussion Forum : General Topics : has the church replaced israel

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 Re:

Quote:
I think pretty much the same (not as regards your theological skills ), but there was a 'church' before this one and the question I am asking is 'what has happened to it and what has happened to the promises that were made to it?'


In the scriptures I see a very clear distinction between the jews and gentiles. Jews being the promised people set apart by God and gentiles meaning EVERYONE else. Yes it is true that in Christ the 2 have become one, but God is still dealing with unsaved jews in a different way until the times of the gentiles is fulfilled. The passages in the later part of Romans go over this clearly. I do even believe thus far to the cringing of some of my evangelical fellows that people will be saved apart from Christ, in Romans it states it pretty clear that God will judge some by their consiences as a law against them. And there are other passages on this same stem. But utlimetly in heaven all will partake of Christ and God which is true eternal life.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/9/1 10:26Profile
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 Re: israel

Quote:
but there was a 'church' before this one and the question I am asking is 'what has happened to it and what has happened to the promises that were made to it?'


From reading what Pauls says in chapter 9:

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are [b]not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham[/b]; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." That is, [b]those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed[/b]. For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son." And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Doesn't this have something do do with pre-destination?

Isaac was the seed of promise, wasn't Ishmael the seed of Flesh because they did not trust God for the promise. And through this seed of promise eventually came Jesus. Wasn't He the promise? And whoever rejects this promise, but instead makes "flesh" their's will not inherit the kingdom?

So some jews still believed after Jesus did come(that Jesus was the promise) and some gentiles also. They became one church.

Does this make any sense? :-o


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Chanin

 2004/9/1 10:41Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Yes it is true that in Christ the 2 have become one, but God is still dealing with unsaved jews in a different way until the times of the gentiles is fulfilled. The passages in the later part of Romans go over this clearly. I do even believe thus far to the cringing of some of my evangelical fellows that people will be saved apart from Christ, in Romans it states it pretty clear that God will judge some by their consiences as a law against them.



and you think I have some interesting ideas :-?

I have a lot of sympathy with the latter part of this quote but you are assuming that God's election of Israel was for salvation. I don't believe it was; it was for a unique service which they forfeited as a nation as a result of their rejection of Christ. The nation's hedge was broken down and the kingdom given to another nation.

I come pretty close to Campbell Morgan in my thinking of all this. Here is a selection of quotations from his letters. When I first read this book of quotations from his letters by his daughter in law I was amazed at how close;

"Have the Jews a future? None whatever, save in Christ. The more I read the New Testament, and perhaps especially Paul, the clearer it becomes to me that all the promises made to them are fulfilled in Christ and the Church." Letters p289

"I am quite convinced that Israel as a nation was excommunicated by our Lord from its official position (Matt 21:43) and that all the ultimate spiritual intentions of God are realized and will be fulfilled in and through the church." Letters p146

"election is to service not to salvation" letters p211

"There is no question whatever that all the promises of God are conditional. One has only to go over them carefully and study them to see that this is so. These conditions were not fulfilled by the Hebrew people, consequently for them, as a human race, the promises will never be fulfilled. On the other hand they will be fulfilled through Christ, who was the Seed of Abraham, and in His Church. I think a careful study of Romans 9,10,11 will show this." p291


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/1 10:53Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Does this make any sense?


Hi Chanin
Makes sense to me. Are you sure you are a blonde? (just joking :-D )


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/1 10:57Profile
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 Re: israel

Quote:
Makes sense to me. Are you sure you are a blonde? (just joking )



Ha ha. sure am! Can I just say that He uses the weak things to confound the wise. :-P


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Chanin

 2004/9/1 11:03Profile
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 Re:

Hi Bro. Ron,

Quote:
My question then was 'but what is the root?'. It clearly cannot be Israel in the flesh, as they are represented by the natural branches. Do you really mean to say that physical descendents of Abraham remain in the tree as long as they don't reject their Messiah, but that Gentiles need to actively believe to be grafted in?



This question is kind of a quantum leap into deep things of God. ;-) But I would first like to say that the root has to be Christ as He was promised to Adam and Eve and then to the patriarchs. “And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.” (Verse 7.) God also promised that he would make him the father of many nations and in him would all the families of the earth be blessed. But Isaac was the promised son, and God said unto Sarah, “and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.” The covenant and promises were unto Abraham and unto his seed after him. “He said not, And to seeds as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed which is Christ” (Galatians 3:16). Therefor the promise was made not unto seeds (plural)- but unto to His Seed, which was Christ. Moreover, we are all saved because we are in Christ and our life is hid with Christ in God. We are grafted into Christ and Christ is rooted in God as the second person of the Godhead.

The Church as we know it is not the TRUE Israel and Israel is not the true Israel- Jesus Christ the eternal Son of the living God is the true Israel. Everyone else is an adopted 'son' - whether Jew, Greek, male, female. Christ is the only uniquely begotton Son of God. Therefor we are all in him by faith. He alone can be the root. In Him we live and move and have our being. IF any man be in Christ he is a new creature. I am the True Vine-, etc.

Christ was born a Jew. God considers this lineage to be very important as was seen in His reaction to Esau despising His birthright. We can learn a lot from the 'begats'- but suffice it to say for now that God chose to reveal His Son through the Jewish people, His ekklesia (called out of the world ones). Many were and are still 'called' but few are chosen.

God chose a people from which to demonstrate His goodness and ultimately bring forth His Son Jesus Christ. Those people were the Jews. It was done to provoke the goyim (nations) to jealousy- kind of like when you set one of your kids on your lap in the presence of the others. Naturally, all the kids should want to sit on Daddy's lap after Daddy lets Jacob sit on His lap. But Jacob didn't show that is was such a great thing to sit on Daddy's lap- and ultimately squirmed off His lap and was scattered among the nations. God then set "whoseoever would" on His lap in order to provoke to jealousy Jacob to want to come sit on ABBA's lap again.

The question is- are we provoking Jacob to come sit with us on Daddy's lap- or are we mocking and jesting and making Jacob not want to sit with us on Daddy's lap. We are supposed to demonstrate the glory of being adopted as His son's and daughters by faith- for whether we are Jew or Gentile we are all His son's and daughters' by faith. Only Christ is worthy to Sit with His father in His throne- we are all their by invitation (ek).

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/1 11:22Profile
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 Re:

Robert
Lots of things here to talk about.

Quote:
The Church as we know it is not the TRUE Israel and Israel is not the true Israel- Jesus Christ the eternal Son of the living God is the true Israel.

I am thrilled with this statement. I have long seen Christ's whole eartly ministry as establishing just this truth. He came from the wilderness, supported with the words of Deuteronomy in His heart, having been identified by the Dove; a symbol of Israel. I see Him establishing the rule of God in the land that Israel in the flesh never succeeded in doing. He fulfilled the Servant of the Jehovah witness that Israel after the flesh failed to do... and so on. But if He has fulfilled Israel role isn't that a kind of replacement theology?

Quote:
Christ was born a Jew. God considers this lineage to be very important as was seen in His reaction to Esau despising His birthright. We can learn a lot from the 'begats'- but suffice it to say for now that God chose to reveal His Son through the Jewish people, His ekklesia (called out of the world ones). Many were and are still 'called' but few are chosen.

Not nearly so thrilled with this statement. ;-) This will not do. ekklesia does not mean people who have been called but not chosen. You will know the word 'eclectic' which means chosen-out-of, not potentially but in fact. You are making the word ekklesia mean the invitation; it isn't it is those who have been chosen and set apart into a body. You will know it is used of the town council in Acts 19; this is not the potential council but the elected.

Is it time to examine the relationship between the words Jew, Israel as a people, Israel as a nation state? These words are not synonymous. Not all who were drawn into covenant at Sinai were blood descendents of Abraham; the classic example is Caleb. We need,surely to distinguish between the Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/1 11:45Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
You are making the word ekklesia mean the invitation; it isn't it is those who have been chosen and set apart into a body. You will know it is used of the town council in Acts 19; this is not the potential council but the elected.



Hi Bro. Ron,

The statement does come off that way as I should have read it back again and clarified. Certainly I agree with your take on that.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/1 11:49Profile
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 Re:



Ron,
Is your intent to discuss with one or two persons who already know the issue at hand or are others to profit from your insight?
You need to take much less for granted as to ability to handle this subject to make it to be of any value for the larger group of readers – including me.
Please, if possible, do correct - as this subject is of great interest and importance.
Lars W.


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Lars Widerberg

 2004/9/1 11:59Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Is it time to examine the relationship between the words Jew, Israel as a people, Israel as a nation state? These words are not synonymous. Not all who were drawn into covenant at Sinai were blood descendents of Abraham; the classic example is Caleb. We need,surely to distinguish between the Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic.



I think the issue at hand is one of God's intention and purpose in His revelation of salvation through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God set the descendants of Abraham apart by birthright and circumcision; but the birth and circumcision alone are not enough to constitute being "Of Israel." The just shall live by faith. Therefor those who "were of their father the Devil" had no right to say of themselves they had Abraham as their father even though they were a descendant of Abraham. In these things indeed we see a distinction between Israel as a nation (or a people) and Israel as the true sons and daughters of God.

However, the part of Israel that rejected Christ as Messiah have maintained their identity throughout the centuries in identification as 'Jews' and have followed for near 2000 years a form of Judaism- which alledges to hope for the coming of a Messiah. Rabbinic Judaism is not the Judaism of the first century. there have been a lot of falsehood passed down and taught to children- butressed with the maltreatment of the Jews in nearly every land and age of recent history- and often in the name of Christ. We have to deal with the fact that there are Jews that exist because God has not cast away the people that He foreknew- else they had utterly had been assimilated within the nations of the diaspora. There are Jews today as there was in Paul's day and if he were here his attitude would be the same- wishing himself to be accursed from Christ for his people and kinsman according to the flesh. If that was Paul's feeling- should we not share that urgency?

This issue is schrouded in mystery so it is easier to lay out the facts of what we know than to try to figure them all out. But suffice it to say that it is our responsibility to provoke the unbelieving Jews to jealousy and return to their God and His Christ. The Gospel is to the Jew first and also to the Greek. This must happen in every generation. Either chronologically or priori (depending on the translation of 'first') our priorty must be that they MUST hear the Gospel.

Will Israel (the Jews) eventually be the people from which God exercises a theocratic government in the earth with Christ seated on the throne of David in Jerusalem- we shall see. I do not have a problem with this biblically at all. I agree with Art Katz that Israel (the Jews) are key to God working out His plan of redemption in the earth.

The middle wall of partition (the law) has been broken down. God removed in Christ the enmity between the Jew and the Gentile by removing the laws that kept them seperated (i.e. what God hath cleansed- that call not thou common). The devil has turned this around and erected a wall of antagonism in the Gentiles against the Jews and have all but destroyed the peace that God intended to make between us. This is a tragedy of epoch proportions. There are distinctions and roles for Jew and Gentile just like there are for men and women. We must understand that there is equality among all of us- but difference in function and position. When we blur the distinction between Jew and Gentile it is no less than blurring it between men and women. The purpose and structure that God has set up- is thwarted (so it seems). The machine simply quits working and souls are lost. It has been my hope to see these issues resolved that God's people that He foreknew would have an opportunity to hear a pure Gospel message and a real opportunity to accept or reject their Messiah as He really is - as opposed to how the Church has represented Him for near 2000 years.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/1 13:25Profile





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