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ceedub
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Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 It was me. But it wasn't me.

Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Had an epiphany years ago about these two passages.
Are they saying what it says they're saying?

I believe these two verses are priceless to those who've struggled to explain the sinful nature they have while in churches that have implicitly expected sinless perfection and deny the doctrines of grace.

Any thoughts on what Paul is teaching and reteaching in these two verses?

 2009/6/8 0:52Profile









 Re: It was me. But it wasn't me.



To ceedub:

I like what Jon Courson has to say about Romans 7:14-25

Romans 7:14

14. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

There are basically three types of people- The natural man is what we all were before we were saved. The spiritual man is the one who is saved and who walks in the Spirit. The carnal man is born again but lives in the energy of his flesh. Therefore, although the carnal man can appear to be saintly and righteous, he is miserable internally because he knows he can’t live up to the rules, regulations, and expecatations he has placed upon himself. That’s where Paul was. Yes, he was converted, but he was miserable in his carnality.

Romans 7:15

15.For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

“I want to do what’s right,” said Paul, “but I end up doing the things I hate.” Ever feel that way, dieters?

Romans 7:16-17

16. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

“The problem isn’t with the law,” said Paul. “The problem is with the sin in me.”


Romans 7:18 (a)

18.For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing

Whenever I’m disappointed in myself, it because I’m denying what God said when He said, “Jon, in you dwells no good thing.” I still struggle with this. I understand the concept theologically and can quote the verse from memory. But sometimes I think, There is some good in me—--isn't there? Am I really this bad, Father?”

Every time I get down on myself, I hear His voice again saying, “Jon, didn’t I tell you straight out, didn’t I record it in black and white that in your flesh, in you personally, dwells no good thing? Why then are you disappointed in yourself?”

Those who have a tendency to despair of life do so because they think there’s something good in them that they’re failing to utilize. They’re not living up to their self-image. Although we want our kids to have high self –esteem, the Scriptures say, “Sorry. In you dwells no good thing.” Far from depressing me, I am incredibly free when I finally understand this.

Romans 7:18 (b), 19

for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19.For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

“How to perform I find not.” Ever feel that way? Can you relate to Paul in his carnal state? I can!

Romans 7:20

20.Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Here’s how to differentiate between a pig and a prodigal, between an unbeliever and a carnal Christian: Take the pig out of the pigpen, wash him in bubble bath, spray him with cologne, put a ribbon in his hair, a bow on his tail, and watch what happens the first time he sees some mud. The pig will wallow in it with joy. The prodigal, on the other hand, although he might foolishly find himself in the mud from time to time will not be comfortable there. Eventually, he’ll come to his senses and say, “Get me out of here. I hate this stuff”---which is exactly where Paul was.

Romans 7:21-23 (a)

21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,

In my mind I want to follow the law of God. I want to walk in His ways and keep His commandments. That’s truly my determination and my mind-set. But my body rebels. My eyes are prone toward lusting. My ears strain to hear something jucy. My tongue wags so readily to gossop. There’s a war going on. How can I get victory?

Romans 7:23 (b), 24 (a)

and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24.O wretched man that I am!

When Pual was a natural man, the law slew him. When he became a believer, he found himself once again under legalism, with a war going on inside of him. The original translation of the last phrase of this verse sums up Paul’s state perfectly: “O wretched man---me.”

Romans 7:24 (b)

who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

In Paul’s day, the sentence of a man convicted of first-degree murder could be tied to the body of his victim. Often, the stench alone would kill the murderer: It is possibly this Roman practice to which Paul is referring when he cries, “Who will free me from the failures, shortcomings, and sinful tendencenies I’m forced to drag behind me wherever I go?.”

Paul is now ready to lead us into an expositively lieberating truth. In verse 18 he said, “How can I get victory?” After struggling a little longer, he realizes it’s HIM. Many Christian are concerned with “how”. “Please give us procedures, plans, programs,” they say, not realizing those things only produce perpetual struggle. The flesh always cries, “How?” The Bible always answers, “HIM!”

ROMANS 7:25

25.I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

While we may readily agree with Paul, that the answer lies not in a program or procedure---it is harder for us to understand that neither is the answer found in a principle. At this point in my study of Romans, I can say, “Wow! I get it. The penalty for my sin was paid on the Cross. The power of my sin was broken on the Cross. Preoccupation with my sin is eliminated because of the Cross. I’m free! It’s a principle I’m going to jot down in my journal, a principle in which I will rejoice.”

But wait. Even as I have immersed myself in the Book of Romans, I’ve been on edge. When my temper has flared, I’ve been taken aback by the ugliness of my own flesh until the Lord dealt with my hear again, saying, “You are free. But you are missing out on what only I can produce in as you spend time with ME. Even if you have the principles down and the theology right, without ME, there will be no self-control or peace, love or joy, gentleness or gooness, faith or meekness. Those only come from spending time with ME.”

Who shall deliver me? Not “How shall I be delivered theologically”—but “WHO shall deliver me personally? Like Paul, I declare to you experientally and emphatically that Jesus Christ is the key!

From Jon Coursons Application Commentary of the New Testament

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

ceedub wrote:
Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Had an epiphany years ago about these two passages.
Are they saying what it says they're saying?

I believe these two verses are priceless to those who've struggled to explain the sinful nature they have while in churches that have implicitly expected sinless perfection and deny the doctrines of grace.

Any thoughts on what Paul is teaching and reteaching in these two verses?


 2009/6/8 2:04
davym
Member



Joined: 2007/5/22
Posts: 319


 Re:

Thanks for this discussion folks. Good stuff. I'm so thankful for the book of Romans.

Quote:
Many Christian are concerned with “how”. “Please give us procedures, plans, programs,” they say, not realizing those things only produce perpetual struggle. The flesh always cries, “How?” The Bible always answers, “HIM!”



Amen. It took me a long time to realise this. The power to overcome sin rests in Christ alone, not in us. The enemy is constantly trying to disrupt our relationship with Him. The closer we get to the Lord, the more we know His power in overcoming sin.

There's a danger these verses can be misconstrued however, especially by younger believers. The conclusion that we are not responsible for our sin (as the thread title suggests) is true in the sense that it's our old nature that causes us to sin. This old nature has been crucified with Christ. It rises up from time to time and causes us to sin. If we succumb it causes a believer great distress.

I believe that our responsibility lies in drawing closer to Him hence enabling us to overcome the sin that troubles us. Paul lays out this great truth in the preceding chapter. Romans 6:1-3




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David

 2009/6/8 4:38Profile
sojourner7
Member



Joined: 2007/6/27
Posts: 1573
Omaha, NE

 Re: It was me. But it wasn't me.

Paul had discovered that sin was a principle
within. It is hard to fight principle. The
Spirit enables and empowers us to follow and
serve GOD. He who lives and walks in the Spirit
finds life; he who serves the flesh finds
death.


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Martin G. Smith

 2009/6/8 10:20Profile
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

Quote:
There's a danger these verses can be misconstrued however, especially by younger believers. The conclusion that we are not responsible for our sin (as the thread title suggests)



That's a good point.
Personally, I had been struggling with the sin nature for years and had come to the point where I began to doubt if I was even saved.
Growing up in church where all had the best clothes on, people only smiled and said 'things couldn't be better', didn't line up with the struggles I was having.
Church leaders wisely encouraged us to walk with God but never admitted any shortcomings.
I found myself wondering if I was saved because I knew I had some myself.
One night I cried out to God and demanded an answer to the hardest question I've ever asked,
'God! Am I even saved? How can I be saved and struggle with these tendencies? Am I saved!?'

His answer came so clear it was as if He was in the seat beside me. The answer I heard was, 'Is it you?'
I was immediately prompted to read Romans 6 and 7 as I drove down the highway. When I came to these verses it was the most euphoric experience I think I've ever had as a believer (I was a believer). I sang the whole way home. The greatest weight lifted from me.

I had confused the 'flesh', or 'body of death' that the believer carries with being the 'natural man'. I had never understood what being a new creation meant and what it didn't mean.

I love these verses.

For one who struggles with guilt and condemnation as opposed to pride, these verses are a great encouragement.

 2009/6/8 11:42Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: It was me. But it wasn't me.

Quote:

ceedub wrote:
Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Any thoughts on what Paul is teaching and reteaching in these two verses?

The concept of sin which is spoken of as in Romans 7 is the unlawful desires which are in the flesh.

[b]Romans 7:17[/b] [color=990000]So now it is no longer I who do it, but my own fleshly desires dwelling in me.[/color]
See:
[b]Romans 7:5[/b] [color=990000]When we were [b]in the flesh[/b][/color] (not walking after the Spirit as the unsaved do) [color=990000], our sympathy for our unlawful affections which the law revealed, animated our members[/color] (we acted upon those unlawful affections) [color=990000]to bring forth fruit unto death.[/color]

The flesh is not sentient & can not have a will (desire) of its own. The flesh is a tool, if you will. What matters is how we choose to use our flesh & what we choose to put or affections (desires) on.
The flesh will give pleasure because of the senses. The flesh is amoral; it takes pleasure in what ever & however, good or bad, morally or immorally for it has no mind to discern. This is unchangeable, it will remain the same even after we are saved; the flesh needs to be done away with. That will happen in the resurrection.

[b]Romans 7:20[/b] [color=990000]Now if I habitually do what I actually prefer not to do, it is no longer I who am doing it, but my own fleshly desires that dwell within me.[/color]

[b]Romans 7:21[/b] [color=990000]I find then a standard, that when I desire to do good, corruption[/color] (weakness & inability of the flesh) [color=990000]is right there with me.[/color]
The "evil" is not "[b]in[/b]" him, but "with" him as being the flesh (the flesh is that "evil" or "coruption")

The key is Verse [b]23:[/b] [color=990000]But now, I see different set of requirements, and they are in my body parts, warring against the standard of my moral conscience, and bringing me into captivity to those "requirements of my own fleshly desires"[/color] (law of sin) [color=990000]which are/is in my body parts.[/color]

The "law of sin" in this verse is the demands of our own fleshly desires & affections against known law that bring us in opposition to God which separates us from Him.
The "law of sin" or "requirements of my own fleshly desires" includes the inability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM.

 2009/6/8 20:33Profile
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

Quote:
The flesh is not sentient & can not have a will (desire) of its own.



But would you agree that the flesh is fueling the will with desires that the born again man would not have otherwise?

 2009/6/10 18:26Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
ceedub wrote:
Quote:
The flesh is not sentient & can not have a will (desire) of its own.

But would you agree that the flesh is fueling the will with desires that the born again man would not have otherwise?


I would say that the inviroment fuels the will with desires.
The flesh is always able to be controled, the situations/enviroment is not.

The born again are susceptible to the same and just as much as the unregenerate.

If one puts himself in a situation that he knows is bad because of temptation, it does not matter who you are, the temptation is stil there.

However, temptation is not sin. Temptation is the proposition presented to the mind that you can satisfy a good appetite (the flesh) in a forbidden way. Temptation leads to sin…. Sin is the decision of the will…. sin is the decision to gratify a good appetite in a bad way." (Paris Reidhead)

Everyone is tempted. However, one being [b]led astray[/b] and enticed by his own desires will produce sin. And the sin, after being perfected, brings death (James 1:14-15).

So, the situations/enviroment where there is temptaion to satisfy the flesh in a forbidden way has a potential to lead anyone astray; it is the going astray that leads to sin, not the temptation.

 2009/6/10 22:24Profile
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

So how would you peg the garden of Eden, pre fall? As far as environment goes?

 2009/6/11 1:02Profile
davym
Member



Joined: 2007/5/22
Posts: 319


 Re:

Logic wrote (quoting Paris Reidhead)

Quote:
Temptation is the proposition presented to the mind that you can satisfy a good appetite (the flesh) in a forbidden way.



I've been trying to get my head round this. This is the first time I've heard 'the flesh' described as a 'good appetite'. The thing which interests me is the following verse

Romans 7:18

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,)[b]dwelleth no good thing[/b]: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Perhaps I'm misreading this or it may be a bad translation, but doesn't this contradict what Reidhead is saying?


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David

 2009/6/11 10:26Profile





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