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Eli_Barnabas
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Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Quote:
Both the Catholic church and the Protestant church killed men who found the Scriptures to be the foundation on which they stood. The Scriptures were powerful enough to enable Grebel to overcome the influences that men like Luther and other reformers did not.



Very true, the Scripture is completely sufficient and therefore it IS not excusable that the Reformers failed overcome Augustinian eschatology, but it IS understandable. It's true in our own day that the Scriptures are sufficient, but we do not slander those who don't see everything as they ought. Who does? It's no excuse, but it is understandable.

It would be interesting to see how many of us, who talk much about the problems of the Reformation, would have broken away from Roman Catholic ecclesiology and eschatology had we lived in those days. Remember, we didn't have the restored nation of Israel in 1948 as a handicap. Luther, for example, was a Roman Catholic and believed in the state-church system as taught and observed from his childhood. Revelation poured in concerning justification by faith as he was struggling with his own salvation. The Reformation ultimately did not start as a turning over of the whole structure of ecclesiology as the world knew it, but as a turning over of the false view of justification by works. One thing led to another, and well, the rest is history.

The Reformation's motto was reformed and reforming. They triumphed over the false gospel of works. They unfortunately failed to grasp the ecclesiology and eschatology as it is in truth (isn't this lamentable fact still true today for many?) but thankfully God has rescued His people from these erroneous views and is bringing the Church into greater maturity and understanding in these last days. Let me say this for our consideration: EVERYTHING IS HAPPENING ACCORDING TO SCHEDULE.


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Eli Brayley

 2009/6/8 15:29Profile
Eli_Barnabas
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Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Quote:
but not in the hyper calvinistic way



God forbid that any of us believe it in a hyper-calvinistic way!

God bless you, brother.
-Eli


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Eli Brayley

 2009/6/8 15:33Profile
repentcanada
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Joined: 2005/5/9
Posts: 659


 Re: What the reformers forgot

WOW.....THIS SERMON NEEDS TO BE REFUTED BY CALVINISTS, if possible

 2009/6/8 15:39Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

repentcanada wrote:
WOW.....THIS SERMON NEEDS TO BE REFUTED BY CALVINISTS, if possible




there are many out there if you search


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/6/8 15:46Profile
tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
Its a good and very informative teaching that is very recommended...



The problem with this teaching is not that it points out problems with certain aspects of the reformers and the reformation, but that so much of the other information it imparts is simply...wrong.

He severely over generalizes and misrepresents historic Calvinism. Thus He shows himself to be like so many other Calvinism criticizers.

Its one thing to disagree with a doctrine, its another to completely misrepresent it.

Sad.

I would definitely not recommend it.

There are other teachings that point out the errors of the reformers without all the inaccuracies.

Nothing personal. I simply think there are much better and safer teachings on this subject.


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TJ

 2009/6/8 16:23Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

You may be right brother TJ, my intention is not to criticize calvinism or reformed theology even as i disagree in some areas, and your right maybe this man do generalize all calvinism and in so doing misrepresent much of its history and many who hold the views of it, and that is i must say not good at all, what i do find to be good, is what i can draw from this for myself, wheter i am calvinist or not, i can learn from history, not to accuse them, and as eli pointed out, what would we have done in their place and to a degree i can understand them even as they where dead wrong on some things they did and believed. I can understand how they came to such a belief and understand why they held it.

But what i can apply from this to my life is to try not make the same mistakes, i may not lead a reformation or even a church, but still there are lessons to learn from their mistakes, surly we can find the much warning lessons from all kinds of christian history and doctrines.

If we do this we can draw much good, if we use their faults to judge them and so on we are wrong even if we are right.

Did not intend to make it a "your beam in the eye is bigger then mine" thing, but i hope you understand what i meen, even the most wholehearted reformed calvinist must to some degree see there was sserius mistakes and errors taking place in this reformation , now we can not change or fully understand, and we are not to judge them as persons, test what they taught by scripture and learn from the mistakes they made, and perhaps we need not do the same.

then there is some good in this message i would say.


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/6/8 16:50Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

A good word brother, I agree with you. There truly is much to be learned from past mistakes and the reformers had their share. I simply wanted to let others know of the errors in this teaching…not deny that there is truth in it…just make people aware of the presence of several falsities.

Like you, a theological difference does not stop me from learning from others. I still read and listen to preachers and teachers of differing persuasions.

I also learned from this teaching. It’s like the saying goes, ‘Eat the meat and spit out the bones’, only sometimes, for me, the fish is simply too bony to be recommend…even if there is some good meat.

God bless you brother


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TJ

 2009/6/8 18:08Profile
repentcanada
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Joined: 2005/5/9
Posts: 659


 Re:

all i was saying was this is a must hear sermon

 2009/6/8 22:47Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4801


 Re:

Brother Eli wrote:


Quote:
Luther, for example, was a Roman Catholic and believed in the state-church system as taught and observed from his childhood.



Conrad Grebel was raised in the same way, in the same generation, but he chose the Scripture as his foundation. Do you see the difference between this man and those who chose to remain under the influence of Augustine?

In Christ
Jeff




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Jeff Marshalek

 2009/6/8 22:54Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4801


 Re:

Brother TJ wrote:


Quote:
Its one thing to disagree with a doctrine, its another to completely misrepresent it.

Sad.

I would definitely not recommend it.



Jacob Prasch teaches in depth concerning the different types of Calvinism that have evolved over the centuries. There are two sermons, here at SI in which Prasch gives a more detailed view of Calvinism.

The titles are...Once Saved Always Saved Part 1, and Part 2.

The bottom line is; there are two kinds of christianity in this world today. One is called Patristic Christianity which bases it doctrines on the foundations of the Early Church fathers. And then there is the Apostolic Christianity whose base is founded on the Holy Scriptures.

Calvin and Luther are men who fall into the Patristic Christianity. Conrad Grebel is a man who found the Apostolic way.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2009/6/8 23:09Profile





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