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hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
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 What the reformers forgot

I just listen to this and i thought it was very good one.



[b][url=http://www.radiofreechurch.com/audio/prasch/Prasch_What_The_Reformers_Forgot.mp3]What the reformers forgot[/url][/b] [i]by Jacob Prasch[/i]


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/6/7 15:28Profile
Friedrick
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 Re: What the reformers forgot

I thought this was worth the listen too.


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Joshua

 2009/6/8 10:52Profile
hmmhmm
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 Re:

i think its good to remember that we dont listen to teachings as this just to slander the reformers or criticise them, but to learn from their mistakes, they did much good and much we should be thankful fore, but i think is the most important thing for us to learn from the reformers, is it is so easy to replace one heresy with another, I agree on most of what the reformers believed, and much i dont share their beliefs on, but the freed themselves from the catholics, but then they themselves fell into the trap, we so often today still does this, someone see a very "charismatic" church gone to far in signs and wonders and as a counter part they go way over on the other side and in doing so totally reject signs and wonders. Just one example, I think the reformers started very good, but then they made same mistake as catholics did. Even tho they had a more correct doctrine they still did much things alike the chatolics.

Now i think the anabaptist was not perfect, and there where several groups, some was just out of their mind, but others i believe was very close to the truth, much more then the other reformers where. Even as i dont agree on everything the anabaptist said or did, still I believe they where the closest to the reformations goal, to go back to the first Christianity so to say, and as the sermon points out, the reformers Luther Zwingli only made it back to 300, to Constantine.

Its a good and very informative teaching that is very recommended, and its good for keeping in mind for our self, in trying to stand up for truth and correct doctrines, we do not fall into the "holes" as some throughout history has done and in doing so we ourselves become the very thing we started out to be free from.


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/6/8 11:13Profile
Eli_Barnabas
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 Re:

This audio message was bittersweet. Jacob says many good things but he also says many things that aren't true.

The Reformers gave the world an invaluable gift to which we are greatly indebted. It is true that the Reformers failed: I would strongly say that the Reformers primarily failed to reform Roman Catholic (Augustinian) ESCHATOLOGY, which Jacob Prasch rightly explains. Because they failed at this, they brought over with them all sorts of error: Dominion theology, Replacement theology, amillennialism, etc... all with a Protestant flavor. This alone explains the continued practices of religious wars, executions, state-churches, anti-semetism, and the spiritualization of Scripture. This was the greatest error of the Reformation which thankfully is nearly past in our own day.

The Reformation, however, gave us back the gospel of grace, justification by faith, Scripture alone, and election. None of these were false, even if their eschatology was not consistent with it.

We need to appreciate the Reformers for who they were, where they lived, what they understood, and what they gave us. It was difficult for them to break away from the Augustinian way of thinking that so predominated life in those days. It was just naturally accepted that religion and state had to be one, and coupled with the fact that Augustine also preached the gospel of grace, it was a whole other category that needed revelation and reformation that they didn't grasp at that time. When I read about Protestant executions in those days, I am saddened and grieved, yet I understand that those who did these things did so in what they thought was obedience to the Word of God, based upon a Replacement, Dominion interpretation of the Old Testament. A great shame. Nonetheless, these men were our brothers in Christ, for their eternal hope was founded upon the shed blood of Jesus Christ, as is ours. Do we believe that their trust in the salvation of God through Christ forgave them of their sins?

Jacob is wrong to lump all "Calvinists" in the same boat. Let it be known that one can be a "Calvinist" (I will use the term for the sake of this message) and a Premillennialist. You don't have to be Replacement, Dominion or Amillennial while believing in the doctrines of grace. If you would like examples of men who contradict Jacob's conclusions, who were both Calvinist and Premillennial, I point you to Charles Spurgeon, Horatius and Andrew Bonar, J.C. Ryle, Martyn Lloyd-Jones, John Piper, Art Katz, David Pawson, for starters. Ought we to consider the witness of these men of faith?

So glean the good out of this message, but please consider an alternate standpoint.


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Eli Brayley

 2009/6/8 12:30Profile
hmmhmm
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 Re:

Thank you brother Eli for your post, you mention much important things, id also like to mention that I do not think it would be "right" to say Art Katz was a calvinist. other then that i agree on the debt we own to the reformers, but the good they did should not make us close our eyes to their wrongs, not for accusation against them, but for our learning in our own private walk.

everybody learn from their own mistakes, a fool dont learn from his own mistakes, a wise man learns from others mistakes.

so in this i think we all can learn from the mistakes the reformers did

Thank you for your post.


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/6/8 13:45Profile









 Re: What the Reformers Forgot



Hello

I could not get the audio link to work. I found another link to read, rather than listen to.

[url=http://revivaltheology.gharvest.com/1_cal_arm/reformers.html]What the Reformers Forgot--Document[/url]


Sincerely,

Walter

 2009/6/8 14:59
Eli_Barnabas
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 Re:

Quote:
I do not think it would be "right" to say Art Katz was a calvinist.



He may not have called himself a Calvinist (and neither do I), but Art was a believer in sovereign election. Apparently, near the end of his life almost all he read and talked about (besides the Bible, of course) was Spurgeon!

God bless,
-Eli


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Eli Brayley

 2009/6/8 15:11Profile
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 Re:

Brother Eli wrote:

Quote:
The Reformation, however, gave us back the gospel of grace, justification by faith, Scripture alone, and election. None of these were false, even if their eschatology was not consistent with it.



And


Quote:
We need to appreciate the Reformers for who they were, where they lived, what they understood, and what they gave us. It was difficult for them to break away from the Augustinian way of thinking that so predominated life in those days.



There was one man during that time that overcame the teachings of Augustine. His name was Conrad Grebel.

I have taken some thoughts from one of his letters in which he sought to correct a man named Muntzer.

"Just as our forefathers had fallen away from the true God and knowledge of Jesus Christ and true faith in him, from the one true common divine Word and from the godly practices of the Christian love and way, and lived without God's law and gospel in human, useless, unchristian practices and ceremonies and supposed they would find salvation in them but fell far short of it, as the evangelical preachers have shown and are still in part showing, so even today everyone wants to be saved by hypocritical faith, without fruits of faith, without the baptism of trial and testing, without hope and love, without true Christian practices, and wants to remain in all the old ways of personal vices and common antichristian ceremonial rites of baptism and the Lord's Supper, dishonoring the divine Word, but honoring the papal word and the antipapal preachers, which is not like or in accord with the divine Word. In respect of persons and all manner of seduction they are in more serious and harmful error than has ever been the case since the foundation of the world. We were also in the same aberration because we were only hearers and readers of the evangelical preachers who are responsible for all this error as our sins deserved. But after we took the Scripture in hand and consulted it on all kinds of issues, we gained some insight and became aware of the great and harmful shortcomings of the shepherds as well as our own in that we do not daily cry earnestly to God with constant sighs to be led out of the destruction of all godly living and out of human abominations and enter into true faith and practices of God...."

Also

"There is more than enough wisdom and counsel in the Scripture on how to teach, govern, direct, and make devout all classes and all men. Anyone who will not reform or believe and strives against the Word and acts of God and persists therein, after Christ and his Word and rule have been preached to him, and he has been admonished with the three witnesses before the church, such a man we say on the basis of God's Word shall not be put to death but regarded as a heathen and publican and left alone...."
Also...

"The Scriptures describe baptism for us, that it signifies the washing away of sins by faith and the blood of Christ (that the nature of the baptized and believing one is changing before and after), that it signifies one has died and shall (die) to sin and walks in newness of life and Spirit and one will surely be saved if one through the inward baptism lives the faith according to this meaning, so that the water does not strengthen and increase faith and give a very great comfort and last resort on the deathbed, as the scholars at Wittenberg say. Also that it does not save, as Augustine, Tertullian, Theophylact, and Cyprian taught, thus dishonoring faith and the suffering of Christ for mature adults and dishonoring the suffering of Christ for unbaptized infants. On the basis of the following Scriptures ? Genesis 8, Deuteronomy 1, 30?31; 1 Corinthians 14; Wisdom 12; also 1 Peter 2; Romans 1, 2, 7, 10; Matthew 18?19; Mark 9? 10; Luke 18, etc......"



In the last section Grebel identifies Augustine, Tertullian,Theophylact, and Cyprian as men who taught error according to the Scripture. The reformers at Wittenburg are identified as men who share in these errors.


Both the Catholic church and the Protestant church killed men who found the Scriptures to be the foundation on which they stood. The Scriptures were powerful enough to enable Grebel to overcome the influences that men like Luther and other reformers did not.

just a thought.

In Christ
Jeff



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Jeff Marshalek

 2009/6/8 15:11Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
This audio message was bittersweet. Jacob says many good things but he also says many things that aren't true.



Quote:
So glean the good out of this message, but please consider an alternate standpoint.



Well said.


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TJ

 2009/6/8 15:18Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
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 Re:

Quote:

Eli_Barnabas wrote:
Quote:
I do not think it would be "right" to say Art Katz was a calvinist.



He may not have called himself a Calvinist (and neither do I), but Art was a believer in sovereign election. Apparently, near the end of his life almost all he read and talked about (besides the Bible, of course) was Spurgeon!

God bless,
-Eli



yes he mentions Spurgeon alot, and Spurgeon is Good reading, but he also mentions Chambers as much as Spurgeon, and the understanding i have from Chambers is not in agreement to spurgeons understanding of elction, I think Katz was able to eat from all sort of food from the christian table and draw out that which is good and upbuilding in our most holy faith, and i know he believed in sovereign elction but not in the hyper calvinistic way, i have heard him preach "against" this sort of understanding of Gods election, cant remember which sermon i heard it but just wanted to clarify a bit. one need not be calvinist to be a strong believer in gods sovereignty , for my self i have no issue with mans free choice and gods sovereignty to be opposites or contradictory to eash others. i guess it boils down to how you define the words and terms. One example would be Tozer, he wrote and preach much on gods sovereignty and yet he was not a calvinist. A true preacher preaches all of the word, i think that is what we should do and practice.

god bless you brother


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/6/8 15:20Profile





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