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Discussion Forum : General Topics : i have a question about matthew ch.5

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bible4life
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Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1559
Locport, Illinois

 i have a question about matthew ch.5

This is something i am having a hard time with that i just read. I trust the people on this site for answer to this question.I would like to say also that this site is such a blessing for me, i feel at home, i feel around legit christians who know the word of God and live for him. Before this site i was at a site that i left after i stood up against some of the unbiblical stuff their and was attacked by everyone their and was told by even the moderators to stop when i wasn't wrong, the main issue was a prayer somebody posted and was telling others to pray it, it was called the infant jesus of prague and i didn't say anything unkindly but did rebuke that this was unbiblical. Besides 2 others everyone got mad, many were catholic so you can see where they got mad but i use to be catholic and i know it has some falsehoods but i would like just to say that i feel at home here and this site is awesome and most of all a blessing for me because i have learned so much.Anyways to the question Jesus tells us to forgive our enemies, to bless those that hate and persecute you and he somes it up so that you can be perfect like your father which is in heaven. I understand that God the father cannot forgive but by his son Jesus Christ, so where would we be like the father in forgiving our enemies in that sense i am confused, it is from matthew ch.5 kjv i use. It says to be like him to be perfect like him but God can't just simply forgive us unless christ died for us.


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John Beechy

 2009/6/2 1:54Profile
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 604


 Re: i have a question about matthew ch.5

Is it related to this verse:

Heb 9:22(KJV) "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission".

Many translations says 'there is no forgiveness' e.g. International Standard Version:

"In fact, under the law almost everything is cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of the blood there is no forgiveness".

Which is which? remission, forgiveness, atonement, cleansing, pardon, deliverance, would these words change the meaning significantly?

What is radically distinct with the word forgive or forgiveness.

 2009/6/2 2:13Profile
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 604


 Re:

Col 1:14 (KJV w/Strong's) In1722 whom3739 we have2192 redemption629 through1223 his846 blood,129 even the3588 'forgiveness859' of sins:266

Heb 9:22 (KJV w/Strong's) And2532 almost4975 all things3956 are by2596 the3588 law3551 purged2511 with1722 blood;129 and2532 without5565 shedding of blood130 is1096 no3756 'remission859'

Col 1:14(Literal Translation of the Holy Bible) in whom we have redemption through His blood, the remission of sins;

 2009/6/2 3:25Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re: i have a question about matthew ch.5

there is a difference, if God where to just forgive he would not be righteous any more, so he need the blood, he needs christs sacrifice for being able to forgive you.

have you ever wondered why then cant you ask for a sacrifice from someone? but we are commanded to forgive without a sacrifice, in fact we are at risk losing our salvation if we do not forgive everyone who has done something to us.

Mar 11:26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.”

but the main thing is someone had to pay the price for your sins, if God just forgives he would not be righteous any more, he did not forgive satan. the difference between satan and man is satan knew exactly what he was doing and man was deceived so to say or had outward influence in sinning.

So God has made a way for us to receive forgiveness.

Heb 10:19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,
Heb 10:21 and having a High Priest over the house of God,
Heb 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,
Heb 10:25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.



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CHRISTIAN

 2009/6/2 4:03Profile
bible4life
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Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1559
Locport, Illinois

 Re:

thank you


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John Beechy

 2009/6/2 4:39Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: i have a question about matthew ch.5

The Father forgives based on the work of Jesus on the cross, likewise, when we are offended and hurt by others, we are to find the ability to forgive them based on the very same grounds. In that, we act exactly like God.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/6/2 6:07Profile









 Re: i have a question about matthew ch.5

Hi Bible4life,

Carter Conlon preached on this topic in [url=http://media.tscnyc.org/mp3/2070610S1.mp3]Digging Up the Old Wells of Abraham[/url]

No doubt he was addressing immediate issues within a congregation of over a hundred nationalities, but you will find a clear explanation of the principle Jesus is putting forth, from the Old Testament, in that sermon.

Here is Luke's rendering of what Matthew quoted:

[color=0000FF]Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil. [/color]

Paul also talks about this, here:
[color=0000FF]Romans 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [/color]

Tyndale's marginal note on 'Coals' explains it this way: this, thou shalt kindle him and make him to love.

People are sometimes hostile through fear. If we are not afraid, and treat them with loving respect, their hostility may well fade away.

'Blessing' is the opposite of 'cursing', and it is God's heart that we bless our fellow men.


Remember that Jesus is reported to have been 'beside himself' in Mark's gospel, when He was healing the multitudes (ch 3). His life - the One who created everything - is the Healing power of God, and God very much wants us to approach Him for healing when we have been wounded by others. But, at the same time, He wants us to extend forgiveness to them, which is possible because through His death He paid not only for our sins, but for theirs, and we have no legitimate reason to hold those sins against them.

If a person whom we have forgiven, never ever repents towards God, or asks our forgiveness, that's okay. Just before that verse in Romans, Paul is urging them not to take revenge on their adversaries, but to 'leave room' for 'the wrath of God' who has famously said 'Vengeance is Mine'.

[color=0000FF]Romans 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. 15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep. 16 [Be] of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. 17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place [or, don't give in] unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 [u]Therefore[/u] if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. [/color]

There is also Hebrews 10:30, and one in Deuteronomy (KJV).


I heard a testimony second-hand, yesterday, which illustrates something of this issue.

It came from a Tanzanian Christian, who is married to a Rwandan pastor. The Lord had told them all to stay, even though genocide was going on all around. 9That takes faith!)

Then one day, the Lord said 'Go now', and so she picked up her Bible, her passport, and took her three children by the hands and went into the forest to hide. Four hundred other Christians had also been told by the Lord to 'Go' at the same time, and they lived there under the trees for some weeks.

Then one day, she saw that soldiers had appeared on both sides, and were digging big pits - one on each side - and she knew they were all to be killed, so she motioned to her children to stay quiet, and took them deeper into hiding.

But a young man who cared about her, was worried for her, and came looking for her, and thus drew attention to himself. Soldiers stopped him and asked where he was going. He told them, and they told him to lead them to her, so he went to her last known hiding place - where by now she was no longer. Then the soldiers began kicking him and calling him a liar, and would have beaten him to death, until one of them began slandering God, saying 'Your God is a God of war'.

The lady in hiding (who I haven't mentioned was also heavily pregnant with twins) said that when she heard that, something rose up inside of her and before she knew it, she had stepped out of her hiding place to say 'My God is not a God of war!' So the most senior soldier asked for her papers, and she gave him her Tanzanian passport. Then he named a man, and asked if this was her brother (which it was) and she affirmed it with a 'Yes'.

Then the soldier said 'He was such a great help to my family, although I will be in trouble for this, I'm going to let you all go..!'

And so none of the Christians were killed that day.

The lady testifying said 'So, be nice to non-Chrisitans, because you never know when next they might turn up in your life.'

(The twins are fifteen now.)

 2009/6/2 15:35
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 604


 Re: i have a question about matthew ch.5

These things came to my mind when I first read the original post:

1. Is it necessary for the Lord to require blood or life before He can forgive or this is a requirement that is akin to the concept of justice, atonement, redemption and other related issues.

2. When we obey the Lord's command or teaching to forgive those who persecute or sin against us, and so that we will be perfect as He is perfect, is this null and void without the acknowledgement of or if without reference to His sacrifice. Is there no difference in the concept of forgiveness between human beings and forgiveness between man and God. Does forgiveness among humans require blood.

3. When we sin against our neighbors we also sin against God, forgiveness comes from both but is the mechanics the same.

4. Do we have to forgive our fellowmen or brethren even if they do not or have no intention of repenting, or shows no indication of repentance at the moment.

5. ...Be perfect...Forgiveness seems to be related to the infinite and eternal moral quality of God on benevolence, love, and mercy. Being partakers of Christ and born of God forgiving is but just a natural fruit and manifestation of His character even in us.

6. Is there a mistranslation from remission to forgiveness in Heb9:22 in other Bible vesions.

 2009/6/3 0:30Profile
bible1985
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

passerby thank you so much, that was what i needed

 2009/6/3 0:41Profile





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