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run2win
Member



Joined: 2009/2/1
Posts: 164
USA

 Re: Reformed from what?

So much for simple answers!

Thanks to all who have responded. I can't say that I have any more clarity...just more information, and with it, countless knots and tangles. I will continue to read responses and check out some of the resources.

Jeff, I listened to the audio of Jacob Prasch. I am not familiar with him; that was my first and only exposure, but I found myself agreeing with much of what he said. He has a fascinating background. I'd love to hear his testimony. I hold to the belief that true Christianity is a Jewish faith. I believe what the Scriptures say about the gospel, that it was given to the Jew first. Romans 1:16 It is helpful to understand the Jewish perspective when studying the NT.

Michael, thanks for your answers. I was somewhat confused about Augustine. Was he not a catholic? Do they not claim him as one of their own? Of course, they say that Peter was the first pope, so I guess this is all a matter of how they trace and define their history. Anyway, did Augustine, or did he not, establish a monastic order? Was he the originator of contemplative thought/writing? I'm seeing so much tossed around these days.

I don't have all of this in context historically. I did look up a few things on the net, but I'm trying to see how both the Roman Catholics and the Reformers view Augustine as such a vital root in their theology. I understand what many of you were saying about other teachers, etc. through the ages, but Augustine seems to hold a place of extreme veneration in church history. Again, my personal observation. This appears to be so in many cases.

From perusing these responses, I can say that my knowledge of church history in the time period following the Biblical accounts is very limited indeed. Still, I don't know to what extent I wish to devote time and study to it. I'm not persuaded that an abundance of this knowledge will be of great profit to me in my walk with the Lord. I am rooted and grounded in my faith, and growing in my relationship with the Lord. I only want to know Him and desire Him more and more.

I'll digest some of this and probably return with more questions.

Lastly, I appreciate the Moderator's input. I need to read through that again. All of this should prove to be of great help. Thank you all.

In the course of all this, God led me to 1 Corinthians 1-4 which brings me back solidly to the Word of God and its sole authority and power Heb4:12. If every record of the church and every written word of man were lost to us forever, if only the Word of God remained, we would be lacking in nothing.

May the Lord find each of us faithful. May Christ and His gospel be our consuming passion.

1 Cor 2:2 "For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified."
5 "That your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God."

1Cor3:11 "For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

Grace and peace to all.

 2009/5/31 16:50Profile
yoadam
Member



Joined: 2009/2/10
Posts: 97
OREGON

 Re:

Quote:

JoeGrey wrote:
Interesting discussion here!

I think the reply to this post on [b]reform = the restoration to pure doctrine[/b] throws a lot of light on the issue at hand.


Definitely. 8-)

"Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls." Jeremiah 6:16

Quote:
Concerning Augustine, I suggest you listen to John Piper's biographical sketch (sermon) about his life. It made me understand much better where and how he fits in.

blessings! :-)


Yes, Piper's biographical sketches really will shed even more light on this discussion. I would highly recommend both the one on Augustine and Calvin.

[url=http://www.desiringgod.org/download.php?file=http://media.desiringgod.org/audio/conferences/bcp1998/19980203_piper_augustine.mp3]The Swan Is Not Silent - Sovereign Joy in the Life and Thought of St. Augustine[/url]

And,

[url=http://www.desiringgod.org/download.php?file=http://media.desiringgod.org/audio/conferences/bcp1997/19970204_piper_calvin.mp3]The Divine Majesty of the Word - John Calvin: The Man and His Preaching[/url]


_________________
Adam

 2009/5/31 21:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:

run2win wrote:

In the course of all this, God led me to 1 Corinthians 1-4 which brings me back solidly to the Word of God and its sole authority and power Heb4:12. If every record of the church and every written word of man were lost to us forever, if only the Word of God remained, we would be lacking in nothing.

May the Lord find each of us faithful. May Christ and His gospel be our consuming passion.

1 Cor 2:2 "For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified."
5 "That your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God."

1Cor3:11 "For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

Grace and peace to all.




Bless GOD!

 2009/5/31 21:23
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

Run2Win, thank you for reading our responses. I would like to reply to you, Rookie, and others,

[b]"The error is rooted in the fact that Augustine interpreted Scripture through the understanding of Greek traditions without concern for the fact that the Scriptures are of the Jews."[/b]

If I may say so, it is apparent that you have read little of Augustine yourself, and ought to be embarrassed of the assertion, "Augustine interpreted... without concern..." You have certainly shown little concern, yourself, in rightly interpreting Augustine's motives and methods. My intention is not to defend Augustine in particular, but saints as a whole. No believer should be subjected to such sweeping assertions without credible citations of primary sources. I have read Augustine's "On Christian Doctrine" and can attest that he took into account the historical origins of the scriptures.

[b]"Maybe 10 years ago, I started to read Augustine but lost interest quickly. Whether it is Augustine, Tozer, Murray, Wesley, Wigglesworth or Calvin, I've always lost interest in reading the books other than the bible."[/b]

Friend, your thinking sounds very spiritual but contradicts the very scriptures you uphold.

In Matthew 23:34, Jesus promised, "I will send you prophets, wise men, and scribes." For this purpose the Holy spirit gave and gives the gift of teaching. [1 Cor 12:28]. Certainly Timothy was ordained to teach. Paul told him, "Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you." [1 Tim 4:14] Though he was not an Apostle, I doubt we would take Timothy's lessons lightly. What about the teachers who came after him? Paul instructed Timothy, "what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also." [2 Tim 2:2] And if Timothy or his successors wrote down their lessons, would they words then be less valuable?

God thinks we need teachers apart from the Bible, to help us understand the Bible, so much so that He gives spiritual gifts for this purpose. Surely you acknowledge that God is correct.

I will be forward, but I speak in love, such aversion to books smacks more of anti-intellectualism and individualism, than godliness. Paul himself had commentaries on his mind when he wrote, "When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, also the books, and above all the parchments." [2 tim 4:13]

[b]"These people that were killed are known as the Anabaptist. From the Anabaptist we have the Baptist, Pentecostals and Mennonites."[/b]

May I correct a historical error here? Historian R. Scott Clark writes, "Though like the Anabaptists in their rejection of infant baptism as contrary to the New Covenant, Modern Baptists are actually descended from congregational and Presbyterian churches." [1] Modern Baptists hold almost totally different views of salvation, Christ, church structure, and government. Anabaptists of the 1500's and 1600's, including those who were otherwise peaceful, generally rejected the deity of Christ and salvation by grace through faith, as is demonstrated here:

"Almost without exception, the Anabaptists from Hans Denck (1500-1527), to probably the most learned of all the radicals, Balthasar Hubmaier (1481-1528), to the most moderate of them all, Menno Simmons (1496-1561), rejected the Lutheran and Reformed confessional doctrine of justification, for the same reason as Rome rejected it, because they thought it would tend to encourage immorality and impiety... the Schleitheim Confession (1527), in which there is no mention of justication [i]sola gratia, sola fide, solo Christo[/i] but strong emphasis on piety and morality is illustrative of this tendency. The Mennonite Dordrecht Confession (1632) confirms this judgment in article 5, which is headed "The Law of Christ, which is the Holy Gospel, or the New Testament," wherein the law and gospel are related, and justification is described in ways much closer to the Council of Trent (Roman Catholic) than to Luther and Calvin." [2]

[b]I was somewhat confused about Augustine. Was he not a catholic?[/b]

Let's get some terms straight. [i]Catholic[/i] simply means universal. If you believe there is only one body of Christ, that is, the invisible one, you are a Catholic. However, a Roman Catholic is someone who believes that the invisible body of the Church is comprised only of those who submit to the Pope's authority. So, Augustine was catholic, just like you and I, but he lived long before there were any Pope's, let alone the Roman Catholic Church as we know it.

[b]"Do they not claim him as one of their own?"[/b]

They claim Jesus as their own, too!

[b]"Did Augustine, or did he not, establish a monastic order?[/b]

Augustine lived in the 300s AD. The Augustinian monastic order which derives its name from him, was not established until roughly 900 years later. [3]

[b]Was he the originator of contemplative thought/writing?[/b]

Though mystics in the middle ages promoted a kind of mind-emptying form of prayer or enforced silence, which is sometimes inappropriately called "contemplative", they have little connection to Augustine's practices of prayer. One may read only a little of his works before realizing his mind was always busy and had little time for that sort of Eastern meditations. In stark contrast, his entire [i]Confessions[/i] is a very intelligent 300 page prayer to God, which recounts the story of his theological journeying and conversion into Christianity.

Hope that helps!

[1] Dr. R. Scott Clark, [i]Baptism, Election, and the Covenant of Grace[/i], 6.
[2] Dr. R. Scott Clark, [i]Recovering the Reformed Confession[/i], 76
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustinian#The_Order_Saint_Augustine

 2009/5/31 23:41Profile
yoadam
Member



Joined: 2009/2/10
Posts: 97
OREGON

 Re:

[b]"7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith." Hebrews 13:7 (ESV)[/b]

Is it not complete arrogance to forget those who have run the race before us? We are commanded in the Scriptures to "Remember your leaders".

Theopenlife has hit the nail on the head-- in that he said, "such aversion to books smacks more of anti-intellectualism and [b]individualism[/b], than godliness."

I like the way the guys over at the [url=http://monergism.com/]monergism book store[/url] have said it,

"I am one person in one place at one time. Myexperiences and perceptions are limited andcolored by the environment in which I live.Therefore, it would be profoundly arrogant ofme to think that I can best grow in the knowl-edge of God through Scripture by myself.

Certainly the Holy Spirit is graciously given toall God’s children to enable us to comprehendand be conformed to the truths of the Bible.Nevertheless, one of the primary means ofgrace God uses in the process of our transfor-mation is the universal-historical community ofbelievers. Within that community, God gra-ciously provides leaders of few and leaders ofmany to equip the saints for the work of minis-try.

It is a humbling thing for me to read a book.Most books take at least several hours of com-bined time to process, and I have to forsakeother distractions in order to focus and benefitfrom what I am reading. Most of all, I can’t talkback. I am forced to just listen, patiently followand receive, to think another man’s thoughtsafter him.

One of the new desires placed into the heart ofevery believer is the desire to think God’sthoughts after him. Let’s pursue humility byreceiving the thoughts of those who have led usand spoken the word of God to us in the mostenduring of all earthly mediums: the book."

Adam


_________________
Adam

 2009/6/1 5:09Profile
yoadam
Member



Joined: 2009/2/10
Posts: 97
OREGON

 Re:

Quote:

run2win wrote:
I did look up a few things on the net, but I'm trying to see how both the Roman Catholics and the Reformers view Augustine as such a vital root in their theology.


Hi.

Basically, protestants hold to Augustine's views on salvation, but reject his views on the church; while Roman "catholics" hold to Augustine's views on the church, but reject his views on salvation.

I guess Augustine had unresolved issues with his views on these two subjects.

:-)


_________________
Adam

 2009/6/1 5:21Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Basically, protestants hold to Augustine's views on salvation, but reject his views on the church; while Roman "catholics" hold to Augustine's views on the church, but reject his views on salvation.



It should also be noted that Augustine was a very complicated theologian. While asserting salvation by grace, he also ultimately taught baptismal regeneration, the means by which he saw grace becoming effectual. When people make use of Augustine, they treat him like a piece of swiss cheese (with holes evident). Neither Catholics, Orthodox, or Protestants truly make full use of him. Though, some who feel the need to have his "authority," tend to baptize him into their own school of thought, as if he were one of their own. It's a nice touch to have Augustine to agree with you on some point :-)


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/6/1 6:32Profile









 Re: Reformed from what?

Hi Jeff,

I left a question for you on p2, and in retrospect I wonder if it deserves a thread of its own?

No-one else seems to have noticed what you wrote here, but I would still be grateful if you would explain how you hold it together within the New Testament?

[color=0000FF][i]'God did not extend the covenant that He made with Israel to the church. What I mean by this is that Israel as a nation is the only nation that God made a covenant with. The new covenant did not include the nations that followed the death of Christ.'[/i][/color]



Thanks! :-)


EDIT: Just for the record, here are some Bible verses to consider:

Genesis 17:2
And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for me, behold, my covenant [is] with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. {many...: Heb. multitude of nations} 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. {Abraham: that is, Father of a great multitude} 6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 2009/6/1 9:33
Friedrick
Member



Joined: 2004/8/19
Posts: 110
Nicaragua

 Re:

Quote:
I have found a good teaching on this subject. Go to this page and look for a sermon by Jacob Prasch. The title of the sermon is: What the Reformers Forgot.

Prasch covers the church history of the reformation and the foundations on which Reformed theology is based. He talks about the error of the protestant reformation in that those who lead the reformation based their doctrine not on the bible but on the teachings of men like Augustine de Hippo. Prasch is a good teacher.


http://www.radiofreechurch.com/topics_display/52?page=2&sort=alpha


In Christ
Jeff



This teaching was helpful to me. Thanks for posting.


_________________
Joshua

 2009/6/1 22:41Profile









 Re: Reformed from what?

The Pilgrim Church is interesting for anyone who can bear to read history. It doesn't attempt to answer the questions in the leading post, but broadens the perspective to include non-demoninational moves of God, down through the centuries. Greg Gordon brought it the the attention of SI, and posted the introductory part, [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=22063&forum=40&5]here.[/url]

 2009/6/6 12:04





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