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 Re:

Quote:
Okay, I see. I just wanted to make sure I understood you. And yes that was a teaching of the Methodist church that Wesley and Finney believed. Also, the Church of God of Cleveland has or had this as a part of their theology.


What's your take on it? I am not totally sure what I believe on this.. I do feel that there is a deeper working of God and enduement of power that the Church can experience, but its not necessarily for salvation.

for example:

"The disciples were filled with the Spirit when Jesus breathed on them in the room. But they didn't go out in that revelation and walk in God. THEY NEEDED the fulness of God, an overwhelming enduement of God's power and a lostness in the purposes of God."

This seems like the difference in my mind.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/1/23 6:44Profile









 Re:

Well, to be honest I haven't given it much thought as of late. But at this point in my life with the limited amount of study that I have given to this topic I would have to say that I do not see sanctification as a second work of grace. I believe that sanctification is a process not a one time experience.

I guess my opinion is based on how I observed this teaching being practiced in the Church of God. After a person would come to Christ the church would "pray through" with that individual until they were sanctified (received the second work of grace). As far as I know they looked at sanctification really as a one time event / instantaneous occurrence rather than a process. But this is only what I saw in my brief experience with this denomination. Maybe Wesley taught something entirely different.

To keep it simple I see sanctification as a process that takes place throughout the life of a Christian. This process has to have a beginning but I don't believe that the beginning is the end of it.

Also, I read the thread on Eradication vs. Counteraction and this takes the study to a whole new level. I have not been this deep with it yet but I am interested in studying the topic further.

 2004/1/23 7:01
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

I was just reading your posts about this, and while I don't know the theological side of any of the mentioned ideas, I was discussing the work of the Holy Spirit within the believer, with a friend yesterday. I believe that after saving grace, the more we get in line with God, the more the Holy Spirit is able to use us. That's why I think there were references to not being filled with alcohol, but with the Spirit; "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit." I suppose this process could be called a second work of grace. I take all theology with a grain of salt as many of our predecessors could have been wrong on some details, and some would seem to have to be wrong, as so many within particular denominations disagreed with one another from generation to generation. I'm more interested in soulwinning, but the work God does through us after salvation brings some interesting thoughts. That's okay that we don't agree on everything. Someone told John R. Rice, "Brother Rice, when you get all the people agreeing together, then you can have revival." To which Dr. Rice replied, "No, then you've got the millenium, my brother." (Sermon: Paul Rejoices Over Enemies) Good stuff!


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Hal Bachman

 2005/5/28 18:13Profile
Zapthycat
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Joined: 2003/8/5
Posts: 75
Livermore, CA

 Re:

I have to say that LR was one of the greatest christians that ever lived in my opinion. I do not idolize the man, yet in some weird way I consider him my mentor, though we have never met. When I look at this man and hear him, I want to cry. It would have been my dream to meet him in person while he was still on this earth, although I know he probably would have landblasted me for my carelessness with the Gospel.

I think this man was easily one of the greatest men of God in the 20 century. His book "Why Revival Tarries" has changed my life. I don't put it next to the Bible and compare them, but I see WRT and see that it gives more focus TO the Bible, and really propels you to give more of your heart to God.

Truely, Heaven-Sent revival is the only hope of th church today...


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J. Wilson

 2005/6/17 10:23Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Quote:

sermonindex wrote:

I have been working on Compilations of Leonard Ravenhill, I am hoping to make enough tracks to fill a CD here are 2 so far. I am hoping they will capture this awesome man of God's passion for Christ:
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=3446]Ravenhill01 (compilation)[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=3447]Ravenhill02 (compilation)[/url]


[b]Hi Greg.

I don't think that these links are working properly. However, I would still very much like to receive the Compilations of Leonard Ravenhill! Thanks![/b]


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Christopher

 2005/6/17 11:35Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: some more bits of early facts relating to Leonard Ravenhill

I thought I would add some bits and pieces to the Leonard Ravenhill archive.

I have been reading the biography of Maynard James by Paul James (his son). Maynard James was a key 'second blessing' holiness preacher of the 20th century. He trained with Leonard Ravenhill at the famous Methodist Cliff College. They formed a team of four evangelists who 'trecked' ( pulling a hand cart) through the UK sleeping in village and church halls and evangelising. The principal of the college was Samuel Chadwick.

The four men;
Maynard James - the leader
Leonard Ravenhill
Jack Ford
Clifford Filer.
were associated with the International Holiness Mission which was a very small denomination dedicated to the preaching of Wesleyan (second blessing) holiness. There is a brief description of Leonard Ravenhill as a young man in his late twenties:

Quote:
Leonard Ravenill was just as fiery as Maynard James and even more impetuous! He was a Yorkshire-man, being brought up in Leeds. He had a most attractive personality, and many a lady's heart missed a beat when he was around! He was on fire for the Lord... He rarely kept still when preaching, and used to stride from side to side along the whole width of the platform as he got more and more involved in his subject. He was full of pithy sayings and memorable sentences, such as: "This generation of preachers is responsible for this generation of sinners" and "a man wrapped up in himself makes a small parcel when death cuts the strings".

He had an elementary school eduction, and when he left school he worked as an apprentice cutter at Montague Burton's tailoring works. He was converted somewhere around the 1920's and began attending the Holiness Church at Leeds. When Maynard James visited the assembly in 1929, Leonard received the 'second blessing', and after an experience of a trek led by Jack Ford, he too went to Cliff College. In 1931 he became an assistant pastor at the new Church at Bolton, and a couple of years later he joined Maynard James at Oldham, taking full charge when Maynard left to form the evangelistic revival team.

His ministry at Oldham is remembered (this was written in 1993) to this day, for as well as being a fiery evangelist, he was also a caring pastor. Later he eventually left Britain for the United States, where his dynamic preaching and vigorous writing have had a profound influence. In the early days of the Calvary Holiness Church (see below) he provided a real dynamism to the leadership, although it soon became very clear that he was not very interested in the organisational side of the new Movement"



Leonard Ravenhill was actually ordained in the International Holiness Mission. These four men were the leading evangelists in the IHM but separated from the movement over the question of 'tongues'. The IHM believed they had ceased and although the four men did not exercise the gift personally they were not prepared to say they had ceased. The young evangelists took several of the newer churches with them in their separation and became an Executive Council to legislate for a their churches. In 1935 they entitled themselves The Calvary Holiness Church. Maynard James was elected president and Jack Ford was secretary to the new denomination.

The churches of the new denomination grew rapidly under the leadership of these four young men. By the end of WW2 there were over 20 churches in the denomination. They prayed for the sick in their meetings and saw evidences of God's power in healing. During the WW2 years Ravenhill took a pacifist position.

Some years later the IHP was incorporated into the Church of the Nazarene. Later again Maynard James visited the USA and was impressed with the Nazarene Churches. The four men decided to join their CHC denomination to the Church of the Nazarene but the initial problem was the the Nazarenes were also opposed to 'tongues'. They received an undertaking that they would be able to continue their belief in 'tongues' if they joined and finally the CHC joined the IHM, which they had previously separated from, in the Church of the Nazarene.

This was an uncomfortable compromise which later returned to trouble the initial leaders when a Nazarene president publicly denounced 'tongues'. By this time Leonard Ravenhill was looking towards the US and soon left the UK and his official involvement with the merged 'IHM/CHC/Nazarene church'. He resigned from the denomination in 1951.

Maynard James continued in correspondence with Leonard Ravenhill until James' death in 1988.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/9/30 16:09Profile
chris_h
Member



Joined: 2004/2/19
Posts: 8


 Re:

Yes, I too am having trouble with the comps, and would like to download them. Thanks!

 2006/1/15 13:23Profile
four4Him
Member



Joined: 2005/12/28
Posts: 27
Southern New Jersey

 Re:

-From 1907 to 1919, the Church of the Nazarene was called the "Pentecostal Church of the Nazarene." The Nazarene General Assembly of 1919 changed the name to Church of the Nazarene..

-I wish that they hadn't done that. If someone asks me, I tell them that I'm Pentecostal. I trace my beginnings back to the the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came, drew 120 people out of hiding, and made preachers out of them..

-On the subject of sanctification: Our Baptist brethren refer to sanctification as a process (initial, progressive, and final?). Holiness people believe that sanctification is a one time event ("entire sanctification"), and that it is a second work of grace. However: "We believe that there is a marked distinction between a pure heart and a mature character. The former is obtained in an instant, the result of entire sanctification; the latter is the result of growth in grace" (From the Manual of the Church of the Nazarene)..

-Grace to you, brethren. Keep on growing!...


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John

 2006/1/15 14:32Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: some more bits of early facts relating to Leonard Ravenhill

The things that slip by here...

Some great info Ron...
A 4 month old belated thank you! 8-)


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Mike Balog

 2006/1/15 17:24Profile





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