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 Re: OT Born Again Example

Hi Miccah,

Luke reported

Quote:
He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.

Are you implying that John the Baptist was born again thereby?

 2009/5/30 11:18
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Sis wrote:


Quote:
When Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus He was talking to a live person. How can a physically dead person be baptised in the Spirit, or filled with the Spirit - born again?



This is what Scripture says...

1Pet. 1:11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

Peter declared that the "Spirit of Christ who was IN them" caused them to write the words of God.


Also when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus what did He say...

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.

Have you ever contemplated upon this thought..."We speak what We know and testify what We have seen."

What does Jesus mean by having already seen?

Why does Jesus imply that Nicodemus, the leader of Israel, should already understand these things?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2009/5/31 7:05Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Hi again Sis,

How should we interpret the Scriptures. Many look at Scriptures in finite time. But that is not correct. Here is an example.

In the book of Matthew we have this Scripture.


Matt. 1:22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Matthew took this verse out of Isaiah. Let's look at this section of Scripture...


Is. 7:10 Moreover the LORD spoke again to Ahaz, saying, 11 “Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above.”

Is. 7:12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!”

Is. 7:13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. 15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. 17 The LORD will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your father’s house—days that have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah.”

In this section of Scripture we know that this prophesy was fulfilled by God, in giving King Ahaz a son named Hezekiah.

Well then how could Matthew take Is 7:14 out of this section of Scripture and also apply it to the birth of Jesus?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2009/5/31 7:20Profile









 Re: OT Born Again Example

Hi again Jeff, :-)

Quote:
In this section of Scripture we know that this prophesy was fulfilled by God, in giving King Ahaz a son named Hezekiah.

Probably you won't be surprised to learn that I don't accept this interpretation of this part of scripture. I only ever heard of it since I came to SI, and it has always surprised me that anyone would describe Hezekiah's mother as 'the virgin', since apart from Mary the mother of Jesus, no 'virgin' has ever conceived.

To say that 'we know' is also imo an exaggeration of this position, although it's true 'we know' other people hold to it. Whatever it's foundation, it has always struck me as carnal reasoning, added to which Hezekiah's mother and father called their son 'Hezekiah', [i]Jehovah is my strength[/i], not Immanuel, [i]God with us[/i].

I am further confirmed in my rejection of the so-called multiple fulfilment of prophecies, after reading the author's notes at the beginning of the Orthodox Jewish Bible, where he discusses the Hebrew of Isa (Yeshayah) 7:14 in depth. [url=http://www.afii.org/OJB.pdf]OJB scroll to below Index, to The Translator to the Reader[/url]

Quote:
how could Matthew take Is 7:14 out of this section of Scripture and also apply it to the birth of Jesus?

Apart from the fact that it had not been fulfilled yet? Because of Joseph's experience, by which he could be sure Mary had not conceived by natural means. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: [u]for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost[/u]. Matt 1

Why would Joseph believe the angel? Well probably because a person's geneology was part of their upbringing, and he would know that he and Mary were both technically descended from David, thus fulfilling a well-known criteria of how the Messiah would be identified to and by His people.

Do you think, after angels had appeared in the sky announcing Christ's birth, and random shepherds had appeared to pay homage to the baby in Bethlehem, that Joseph was still wondering if he really had heard from an angel in his dream?

Remember also, that by the time Matthew was writing, there were mountains more evidence of fulfilled scripture, that when he was writing, he would have had to choose carefully which heap of relevant OT to [i]leave out[/i], rather than what to include.

Lastly, you asked 'how?' My immediate thought was 'by the Holy Ghost', which had also inspired both Peter and Paul to refer to Isa 59:20, both altering it slightly to reflect their more perfect (complete) understanding of the outworking of it.

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, [b]in turning away every one of you from his iniquities[/b].

Rom 11:26 (b) There shall come [u]out of[/u] Sion the Deliverer, [b]and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob[/b].

Do we think Paul knew that Peter had said that, when he wrote Romans, or were they both being taught of God, how to understand the promises? Luke just happens to have recorded both of them. I think that's another act of God on our behalf, because Isa 59:20 doesn't say what Paul says it does, if you do simple English analysis on its meaning.

But, Paul was correct to revise Isaiah [i]for us[/i], although [b]Isaiah was also correct[/b] in the light of John Baptist's effectual ministry. The Deliverer did come [u]to[/u] Sion. Luke 13:33

 2009/5/31 14:19
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Sis wrote:


Quote:
and it has always surprised me that anyone would describe Hezekiah's mother as 'the virgin', since apart from Mary the mother of Jesus, no 'virgin' has ever conceived.



What if "the virgin" who gives birth is the Holy Spirit?

Proverb 1:
20 Wisdom calls aloud outside;
She raises her voice in the open squares.
21 She cries out in the chief concourses,
At the openings of the gates in the city
She speaks her words:
22 “How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning,
And fools hate knowledge.
23 Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.

Who is Solomon writing about above?

Where does only true wisdom come from?
Is it not Jesus thru the work of the Holy Spirit.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2009/6/1 6:37Profile









 Re: OT Born Again Example

Hi Jeff,

I'm sorry, I didn't see the post before the last one I answered. so I'm going back to it now.

You said

Quote:
Peter declared that the "Spirit of Christ who was IN them" caused them to write the words of God.

If 'spirit' means 'breath', then it is literally impossible for a person to speak without 'breath' passing through the vocal cords. For that to happen, the Spirit has to be 'in' the man for God's word to come out. But it doesn't imply the [u]indwelling[/u] Holy Spirit, whereby the Son and the Father abide in him. They cannot do that before the cross.

The following passage is a good example of God putting words [u]in[/u]to the mouth of an ass or a man... But that wouldn't make either the ass or the man 'born again' ... would it?

[color=0000FF]Numbers 22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? 29 And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee. 30 And the ass said unto Balaam, [Am] not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since [I was] thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay. {upon...: Heb. who hast ridden upon me} {ever since...: or, ever since thou wast, etc} 31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face. {fell...: or, bowed himself} 32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because [thy] way is perverse before me: {to...: Heb. to be an adversary unto thee} 33 And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive. 34 And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again. {displease...: Heb. be evil in thine eyes} 35 And the angel of the LORD said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak.[/color]

Quote:
Have you ever contemplated upon this thought..."We speak what We know and testify what We have seen."

Yes I have. And you cannot leave out the second half of the quote, which gives greater contextual meaning to it.

First, Jesus calls Nicodemus 'THE Teacher in Israel'. Then, whilst addressing him as '[u]thee[/u]', after the part of verse 11 which you quoted, Jesus says [color=0000FF]' and our testimony [b]ye[/b] do not receive; ' (Young)[/color]Now, as Nicodemus came [u]alone[/u] to Jesus, what could be the explanation for Jesus addressing him in the plural 'ye'?

Isn't it that he actually came on behalf of a [i]group[/i] of Pharisees who were keen to find out more from Jesus without drawing themselves to the attention of those who were already antagonistic to Him (Mark 3:6), but Jesus [i][b]knew[/b][/i] that Nicodemus was asking a 'we' question, rather than an 'I' question? (Actually, Nicodemus didn't ask anything, and Jesus answered the question that was in his heart: [color=0000FF]3 Jesus [u]answered[/u] and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God... 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto [u]thee[/u], [b]Ye[/b] must be born again. [/color]

Were you wishing to draw attention to the plural in which Jesus speaks? [color=0000FF]13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the [u]Son of man which [b]is[/b] in heaven[/u].[/color] This ties in with an earlier statement by John in the first chapter of his gospel: [color=0000FF]18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which [u]is[/u] in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].[/color] This statement also is in the past tense, mixed with the present tense. Both are true.

And, is not the Man, Jesus, both God, and Man - filled with the Holy Spirit?

Further, God's name of Elohim is used solely in Gen 1, (32 times) where as the Creator He began by saying 'Let Us make man in Our own image'. Interesting that in the context of [u]re[/u]creation, Jesus should choose God's plural name.

As one reads the rest of John 3, one comes to another picture of birth - that of coming to the light as a manifestation of truth as it is in God: [color=0000FF]21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.[/color] 3 John 1:4 = walk in the light 1 John 1:6, 7

Quote:
What does Jesus mean by having already seen?

Eph 1:4. The outworking of this in [i]our[/i] experience, depends on the fulness of the time in which [u]we[/u] are physically born. The same applied to Jesus, who simultaneously never stopped being the I AM. Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Isa 9:6; Heb 12:2; Gal 3:23.

Quote:
Why does Jesus imply that Nicodemus, the leader of Israel, should already understand these things?

I think it was slightly rhetorical, but in an encouraging way to him to be open to understand things as yet hidden from him (them), and, He said it with such [i]love[/i] that it would have stirred up [i]faith[/i] in Nicodemus that these things were indeed possible for him to apprehend.

'We know' ;-) from the experience of the disciples over the next couple of years that even being with Jesus all the time, there was much they could not understand, even when Jesus was spelling it out in plain language. Later, Paul affirms this in 2 Cor 3:15, apart from Luke 8:10 - and we know that indeed Nicodemus was amongst those to whom it was given to see - John 19:39. One suspects that's why he was willing to visit Jesus personally, and sit at His feet. John 6:44

That's the way I see these things at present.

 2009/6/1 13:37









 Re: OT Born Again Example

Hi Jeff,

Quote:
What if "the virgin" who gives birth is the Holy Spirit?

Have you any scripture to support this interpretation of 'Holy Spirit'?


Gen 17:1 - 'El-Shaddai means God Almighty. El points to the power of God Himself. Shaddai seems to be derived from another word meaning breast, which implies that Shaddai signifies one who nourishes, supplies, and satisfies. It is God as El who helps, but it is God as Shaddai who abundantly blesses with all manner of blessings.' [url=http://www.parentcompany.com/awareness_of_god/nog6.htm]Names of God[/url]

According to this name for God, He is not 'virgin' (meaning unwed, not [i]known[/i] by a man), in the sense it was essential that Mary, espoused to Joseph, the mother of Jesus, was.

EDIT: Of course God is Holy. His children are Holy. Holy: meaning [i]separated unto Him alone[/i], (not 'born again').

For instance, we could not call 'Israel' 'born again', even though he came into all God's blessing for him. Genesis 50:2


Perhaps you would kindly give a fuller explanation of what you had in mind?

 2009/6/1 14:03
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Sis wrote:


Quote:
If 'spirit' means 'breath', then it is literally impossible for a person to speak without 'breath' passing through the vocal cords. For that to happen, the Spirit has to be 'in' the man for God's word to come out. But it doesn't imply the indwelling Holy Spirit, whereby the Son and the Father abide in him. They cannot do that before the cross.

The following passage is a good example of God putting words into the mouth of an ass or a man... But that wouldn't make either the ass or the man 'born again' ... would it?




Why do you start with the word 'If." The way I read your explanation, you yourself find what you write is highly unlikely.

But if you really believe what you wrote then I must ask, do you believe that the relationship Jesus had with a prophet like Moses is the same as Jesus' breathe being forced out of Balaam's donkey?

In Christ
Jeff



_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2009/6/3 6:38Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Sis wrote:


Quote:
Of course God is Holy. His children are Holy. Holy: meaning separated unto Him alone, (not 'born again').



In Job 33, we find that Elihu describes the ways of God in terms of how God works to turn men back towards Him.

In this particular precept what does the words of Elihu mean to us?
26 He shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,
He shall see His face with joy,
For He restores to man His righteousness.

More specifically, what does it mean when God, through Christ "restores to man His righteousness."

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2009/6/3 7:06Profile









 Re: OT Born Again Example

Hi Jeff :-)

Quote:
Why do you start with the word 'If." The way I read your explanation, you yourself find what you write is highly unlikely.

I believe what I wrote. I don't believe the indwelling Holy Spirit can rest in a man continuously, unless he has been baptised into Christ's death, and makes every effort to co-operate with the new life God is giving him. I don't believe John the Baptist was born again in the way that those in the upper room were, on the day of Pentecost.

Quote:
do you believe that the relationship Jesus had with a prophet like Moses is the same as Jesus' breathe being forced out of Balaam's donkey?

I don't think they were the same kind of relationship. For instance, I think the donkey probably gave Him less trouble. She saw the angel immediately, and she knew she should stop, so that's what she did. Whereas Moses, even after all the demonstration of miracles daily in the wilderness, was prevented from entering in the old promised land, by [i]unbelief[/i]. Num 20:12, Heb 3:19, Heb 4:6 So, we see that the relationship Jesus had with Moses, had not been transforming enough to deal with Moses' temper, and, we remember that his role as a type of Jesus had fulfilled its purpose.

Of course he who had been drawn out of the water (representing the first birth), could not bring the children into the land of promise, because it needed Joshua (Jesus) 1 Cor 15:45, Heb 10:20, (His flesh: Moses had not been allowed to offer [i]his[/i] flesh - Exo 32:32.) Josh 3:13, to follow the priests down into the dry river bed of Jordan, (whose waters had been cut off by the operation of faith - both their faith and God's faith), while God piled the water right back beyond Adam (Josh 3:16) just as the sacrifice of Jesus would reach right back beyond Moses, to Adam, one day.

 2009/6/9 9:24





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