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Rahman
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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Your Opinion: Whats RIGHT with the Church?



Over on Bro. Lazarus thread - Your Opinion: Whats wrong with the church?
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2874&forum=35&6


Sister Yodi posted this ...

Quote;
On here, we complain about how other Christians aren't doing things right. "They're too this" or "They're not enough of that". Why are we so busy pointing out, dissecting, and broadcasting others' "wrong" way of doing things? It's like arguing siblings on here sometimes; "Daddy, did you see what he/she did?!"


So, in a vein of encouragement, what do you see that's right with the Church ...


Any opinions?

 2004/8/26 8:42Profile
moreofHim
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Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: Your Opinion: Whats RIGHT with the Church?

Hmmmm, the first thing that comes to mind is the only true, right and good thing about the church is the Lord Himself. And the fact that He is restoring and building his Church Himself- and we can trust Him to carry this out.

Just a thought. :)

In Him, chanin


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Chanin

 2004/8/26 9:17Profile
productofgrace
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Joined: 2004/4/8
Posts: 4


 Re: Your Opinion: Whats RIGHT with the Church?

May I say I am encouraged to know that someone else out there asks the same question... What do you see that is right with the church?

In leu of the "church" being of ourselves... that is if we be of Christ... for it is He who is the Temple and we are the stones which make up His Body called the "Church"... then I believe we have our answer to everyone's Babblings over What is wrong with the "church"... for if the Spirit is not Right within us... we can find no good thing in the "church".

no good thing comes from the Heart of man... no, not one. For out of the Heart comes forth from the mouth defilement... being so... we speak against ourselves when make negative remarks about the church. We look at what everyone else is doing and not within ourselves... notice,we speak of:

abandoning ourselves to our wants, desires
Him being our everything
wanting only His desires
more of Him and less of us

we quote fine men with many scholarly written material; yet we still persist in taking in only what we choose to see... Wisdom is the fear of God... understanding is to shun evil. Wisdom is not found in Theological Advancement of Intellect... thus we adhere to men who have spent much study and prayer with written material to guide us in our walk... yet we still conclude that NO ONE ELSE IS WALKING IN OUR PATH... we are alone in our journey... and no one seems to see it as we do.

That is funny to me... cause many on this board agree with them who seem to be walking alone... and there are many other boards who say the same.

Can't be walking alone if you find agreement in your way of doing things.

On the note of no good thing is found in the church... then that must be God is not found in us. Despise not the Flesh! Is it possible to abondon the Flesh? Only when we are dead in the grave. The question is not so much what is right or wrong with the "church"... I always heard that God asks for our sins... through self examination of acknowledging that we are sinners... with a contrite heart repentence and knowing we have a God who strenthens us to go sin no more. Good is of God... and in order for anyone to do any good they must have the abiding word of God in them, blood covered through Jesus and walking in the paths of righteousness.

If we who speak against the "church" as we do so often... would grow to LOVE the "church" as He does... we would not spend so much time downgrading it. It is not the True Believer we should be so concerned with in our Murmmurings and Complainings... it is those who we know are of wickedness we are told to witness to... it is the lost, the children of satan... even tho they know not they are the children of satan... it is the ones who have come in unawares among us with their own agendas... it is the False Teachers and Subtle twistings of the Scriptures... it is those who we should speak against; not our own Bodies...

Those who know their righteousness is of God; for it is He who is righteous... those who love others (including their own enemies)... those who study the word and not focus on many written materials and quotes... those whose leading is of the Holy Spirit and much is respected of Him... those whose prayers are of His Will "thy will be done" and whose Hearts are tender toward Mercy and Forgiveness... their Hearts are not hardened toward the Body. There are those who find the state of the "Church" as it is written in the word for the Last days before the coming of the King to be as it should be... and rejoice instead of "fault finding"... they shun the evil doings of the tares and they encourage the brother and sister called the wheat. None knows the heart of man... God does. It fairs us well to do as we are told to do... be wise as serpents and walk as doves... peaceably among men.

search me oh God!... take not your Holy Spirit from me... Search ME! For my lips are unclean and my heart is not in right standing before YOU LORD. Purge my heart Lord that I might see and love as You Oh God. May I come and reason with You Lord and may I be found guiltless when You return... may I always remember it was because of your lovingkiness and mercy that brought me from a pit of damnation and that I may extend this mercy too to others who may one day be adopted into the Body of Brothers and Sisters called Christ's Kingdom.

What is Right with the Church? I believe the question is what is Right Standing Before God?



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Hamer

 2004/8/26 10:11Profile
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Online!
 Re:

Quote:
So, in a vein of encouragement, what do you see that's right with the Church ...


Brother Rahman! I love it, great idea!! yes we need to look at both sides of the coin even though its easier to focus on the prevailing negative trends in the church.

What I find so awesome about the church is that God perserves its true testimony in even the most hardest of times. God is right now keeping people who are striving after the true gospel, and not to boast but many of them are coming to a site like this and God deserves all the glory.

There are some missionaries that are entirely focused with bring a true gospel to people in other parts of the world which is tremendous. They are not caught all up in the North American brand of Christianity but in their ministry station they are giving at true gospel of freedom but of cost.

What also is good about the church is that many are realizing the awful condition of the church and are wanting to do something about it. Like at my church they are wanting to pray and to even have revival because people are leaving and everything is going downhill spiritually.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/8/26 10:50Profile
Rahman
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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: Your Opinion: Whats RIGHT with the Church?


Wow Productofgrace,

What a refreshing and profound reply, and most encouraging, i'll be placing your post
in my keep file, and will e-mail it out to some of my friends ...

Over on "Your Opinion - What is wrong with the Church" i posted Christ's negative observations of His Bride ... So below i'm posting "What Christ sees as RIGHT/POSITIVE with His Bride ...


Rev.2
[1] Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
[2] I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
[3] And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
[6] But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.


[8] And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
[9] I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews (Christians), and are not, but are the synagogue (Church) of Satan.
[10] Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


[12] And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
[13] I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith,


[18] And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
[19] I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
[24] But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this (Nicolaitan) doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
[25] But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.


Rev.3
[1] And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
[2] Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent.
[4] Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.


[7] And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
[8] I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
[9] Behold, I will make them of the synagogue (Church) of Satan, which say they are Jews (Christians), and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
[10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world,


[22] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 2004/8/26 11:03Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Your Opinion: Whats RIGHT with the Church?

With a bit of a disclaimer:

Though I agree a bit that on the surface this seems to be the case, that;

Quote:
Quote;On here, we complain about how other Christians aren't doing things right. "They're too this" or "They're not enough of that". Why are we so busy pointing out, dissecting, and broadcasting others' "wrong" way of doing things? It's like arguing siblings on here sometimes; "Daddy, did you see what he/she did?!"



This may be a bit of a misnomer. Think there is a difference between preference or opinion and trying to uphold the righteous requirements of what the Lord has told us how we ought to be, do and say. Certainly it is an imperfect outworking considering our status, that of being remarkably saved despite ourselves.

In fact, this is one reason to rejoice about the church, that there are those that have grown weary with the sham, the compromise, the endless succession of Sunday services (Katz), going through the motions and a striving for something real, true and honest.

[i] Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.[/i]

Seems impossible to me to [i]not[/i] have to confront the false in whatever form it may take. Be it in word, deed or thought. Primarily in and of myself. There is no relish in doing so with other believers. Myself, I know who am or should I say I know enough of my own foolishness and potential to be deceived, tripped up, at times duplicity, hypocrisy, questionable motives etc. On top of that is a failure to adequately give expression from my spirit, converting it into words. Would much rather go the way of just ignoring the false gospels and all the outcroppings and just go sit in the bleachers.
My opinion is just as worthless as the next in the grand scheme of things. But after being misled and caught up in so much poor teaching and bad doctrine can't but help to at least try and wrestle with these issues and help others as I have been helped. I just hate seeing people being misled, intentionally or not. So it just seems to be just as dishonest to sweep things under the rug because it appears we are to divisive, 'legalistic' or just complaining for the sake of complaining. It seems that is primarily why the church in a great majority is in the state it is in. No standard of holiness, a lack of the overwhelming sense of AWE of just who God is. We are being told in a sense that we shouldn't take these things so seriously, but the scriptures state otherwise.

Jesus never minced words in dealing with people, never played to the crowd or was concerned about offending anybody. The embodiment of Truth. What did He have to say primarily to the 7 churches in The Revelation? [i]"This I have against you"[/i]

That there are those that want the truth at whatever the expense, in fact many that will not rest and are fighting for that very truth to come forth in the church as it should be.

That is what is 'right' about the church and praise God for it! As much as it may at times [i]appear[/i] otherwise here, the great part of us are striving hard after [i]Him[/i], to know Him more, to learn of Jesus, grow into His likeness and submit ourselves in loving obedience because of the incredible, beyond our capability to grasp [i]love[/i], that He has poured out on us who believe.

I just want to please the Lord. To do right, live right, be right in His sight. If I am wrong, to be corrected, if my thinking is askew hopefully it will be corrected or challenged. This 'church' here has opened my eyes to so many things, has taught me so much and broadened my understanding and caused me to continually re-think things, it's ongoing process. In a bottom line sense it has caused a truer, deeper search of just what are my own motives for doing things...am I really being honest with myself? Beyond that it's not about 'myself' anyway, it truly is about Him.

Think there is a huge mis-conception between the way a lot of things [i][b]sound[/b][/i] and what they are really attempting to do. A lot of the messages here could easily be dismissed on that surface premise that "[i] these are hard teachings[/i]" or 'it just seems like they are always complaining' and well, they are! :-)

But unto what? So that we can go grovel and have excessive mourning over our failures to live up to the ideal? Or do they cause a stir to press on, reach higher and go deeper. To forsake our sins and to [i]'hate every false way'[/i]. That is the one thing we should truly hate, as our Lord did.

I have failed often here and apologize for my excessive zeal and often poorly chosen words. Wish to slander no one and in my bumbling, fumbling manner, surely it could be perceived that way, forgive me, it is not my intention.

To help each other I think is a predominant characteristic of this 'church' here at SI. It gets messy in all this open heart surgery, especially with some of the surgeons... ;-)

On the 'seriousness' of this faith, that I mentioned, want to state that while that is certainly true, perhaps we still tend to take ourselves a bit to seriously. Had a reminder of this last Saturday night.

For reasons unknown to me I awoke in the middle of the night with this profound urgency and promptly got out of bed and with purpose and in full stride proceeded to walk face first into our fully closed door! :-P

Apparently I had been sleep walking, not for long mind you, it woke up the wife and Josh heard the loud impact and came out to investigate. Now standing in the hall way dazed, trying to figure out just what I was doing there, failing to give off the impression that I had everything under control, turned and went back to sleep. Next day I kept recalling the incident and have been ever since, it was so ridiculously funny not share it with you all. It has humbled me and been a good reminder if I start to get all bent out of shape about things, causing fit's of hysterical laughter. A good reminder of what a dork I am. :-P


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Mike Balog

 2004/8/26 11:09Profile
moreofHim
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Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: right w/church

Quote:
God is right now keeping people who are striving after the true gospel,


Amen!

Quote:
There are some missionaries that are entirely focused with bring a true gospel to people in other parts of the world which is tremendous. They are not caught all up in the North American brand of Christianity



Yes! Unfortunately when I think of the church, right away I think of the church here in North America- and what the Lord has shown me about it's demise. But as the church as a whole, all over the world, there ARE many good things; many believers with a passion for the true gospel of Christ.

We certainly should not be in denial of our (and I do mean each of us, me included- not everyone "out there") spiritual condition. I am always open to His chastening and refining.
"So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'--and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked-- I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent."

He loves us and is calling His people back to Him- this is also so very good!


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Chanin

 2004/8/26 11:11Profile
Rahman
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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re:

Yea and Amen to your entire post Brother Greg ... and in particular the following ...

Quote;
What also is good about the church is that many are realizing the awful condition of the church and are wanting to do something about it. Like at my church they are wanting to pray and to even have revival because people are leaving and everything is going downhill spiritually.

What i think right about Christ corporate Church is that we keep on stickin and jabbin, upper cuttin and occasionally round housing, and even though at times we may seem to be in rope-a-dope mode, sustaining a conciderable body beating from our opponent enemy satan, we have Christ's assurance that we'll never lose our legs, our ability to dance, our ability to rebound, and most important our ability to knock satan out in the last round, for the gates of hell, no matter how batttered we might seem at present, will NEVER prevail against us!

PS - Brother Greg i also read your testimony ... WE ALL owe our everything to our Lord God Father, Son and Holy Ghost for pulling our fat out of the fire don't we? ... Oh praise His most holy and miraculous name! ...

 2004/8/26 11:18Profile
Rahman
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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re:


Brother Mike,

You know i feel your pain (about the Church, not the closed door .... '0)

But as of late the Holy Spirit has really been impressing on me this scripture ...

Mark.11
[15] And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
[16] And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
[17] And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

He did it once, and He's in the process of doing it again! ... Right now He's just coming thru the entrance of His Temple Church, and His remnant are announcing His presence because we see the "I have something against thee" expression on His face ... And so we're sounding the trumps! ... "Here comes Jesus! ... Here comes Jesus"! ... And rest assured that the curses, slinging, whipping and tossing of the undesirables from His Temple Church is about to occur ... His judgment begins with us first!

Our Lord has shown me that our job is only to warn, and in love at that, never to curse, sling, whip or toss ... That's His job ... It's His job to back up our warning! ... It's our job to warn ... "Jesus is coming! ... Jesus is coming ... AGAIN"!

 2004/8/26 11:44Profile
Yodi
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Joined: 2004/4/23
Posts: 663
Escondido, California

 Re: Your Opinion: Whats RIGHT with the Church?

Yes, great topic. Good things said on here so far. I'll tell you what I've seen "right" or at least liked about the experience I've had with two kinds of churches - Presbyterian and Calvary Chapelian ([laughs] just kidding).

One thing I really like about the couple Presbyterian churches I've had experience with is how involved they are in their communities. I think that's a very right focus. I mean, their churches are equipped with kitchens to feed the homeless and poor. Before our church started doing them, the Presbyterians held some cool Vacation Bible Schools. Where maybe some Calvary Chapels lack community involvement, thank God for the Presbyterians [laughs]!

Now the experience I've had of Calvary Chapels (I work at and attend one) is that I think we're very open to the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit. I like that we don't have to stick to traditions or rituals if the Holy Spirit leads us to change our way of doing things to better minister to the body of Christ. Being always open and teachable as a personal Christian, and as the whole body of Christ, I think is a right thing.


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Yolanda Fields

 2004/8/26 12:53Profile





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