SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : General Topics : "Organic" Church Movement

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 )
PosterThread
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Come visit us in WI. You will find a very strong and growing number of HC's. Sometimes you just have to look in the right places. Most successful HC's that I know are not known by the masses. They are grown by "word of mouth" and nothing more.

I would be hesitant (not necessarily against it, just hesitant) to go to any HC that feels the need or urge to "market" itself.

What I have seen is that most "traditional" churches who try to start House Churches usually place way too many restrictions on people wanting to attend them. Example. A brother that attends my HC was running one through a different church fellowship in the area. The Pastor of that church informed my brother that in order for him to run a HC through his pastors church, the brother would have to do the following:

1. Take a 3 month training course on how to run a House Church
2. All attending members of the House Church would have to be hand picked from the pastor himself.
3. No new people, or outside people would be allowed to attend the House Church for 2 years.
4. The (the brother holdng the HC) would have teach on what the pastor told him to teach on/about.


As you can see, this isn't what House Chruch is to be like. This Pastor left no room for the Lord to move in its midst. All are welcome and you come as you are. You will be suprised how many non-believers will show up to learn about the Lord when you allow the Spirit to draw them in, and not have them "picked" by man.


_________________
Christiaan

 2009/6/9 0:20Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

KingJimmy wrote:
The early church met publicly and from house to house.



The verse that's being used to justify this was brought out by one of the men in the Q an A session, which I listened to the Audio of... and I don't think it really gets it right. I don't think it can be assumed that these were continual side-by-side things... that the early church had both house meetings and public meetings going on all the time.

The verse is: Acts 20.20, where Paul says he taught in Ephesus "both publicly and from house to house."

It seems to me (in my reading) that it was the pattern of the early church to gather in homes. Not because it was their doctrine: we believe in home gatherings. But that's where they lived: in their homes, so they gathered there... or wherever they could in times of persecution... and then also from time to time as the Lord led, they had larger public gatherings... probably renting some kind of facility for the purpose.

...I concur with the other brethren here who have pointed out that gathering in a home is no guarantee of having wonderful meetings with the Lord's Presence always there. Lots of home meetings have dried up and have been abandoned.

But this does not justify the kind of setup commonly called "church" in our day; this is not an argument for the validity of the denominational system.

What's the answer then?

...I don't know that there is an easy answer in 25 words or less. We are in difficult days, and I think there's going to be hard travail to see birthed what the Lord has on His heart.

...We really need to be seeking the Lord.

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/6/9 0:40Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

It seems to me (in my reading) that it was the pattern of the early church to gather in homes. Not because it was their doctrine: we believe in home gatherings. But that's where they lived: in their homes, so they gathered there... or wherever they could in times of persecution... and then also from time to time as the Lord led, they had larger public gatherings... probably renting some kind of facility for the purpose.



I think the early church didn't think a lot about where they met. I think they just met. Of course, they probably looked to meet in homes more often than not. But renting a neutral location to meet at would've been much more difficult in their day than today. According to archeology, it appears early Christians who could afford to do such would sometimes renovate their home quarters to fit many more people than normally possible. I think one dig revealed a house church capable of holding about 75 or so people in it, which is about the average size of most churches today.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/6/9 6:59Profile
Mattie
Member



Joined: 2004/7/23
Posts: 210


 Re:

I don't think the issue is where you meet. There are no rules where to meet with other believers. It could be a house, a building, or an office.

However, the key issue that needs to be discussed regarding the reason many are leaving the 'institutional' structure is because of what the whole new covenant stands for....

1. Christ lives in every believer.
2. Every believer is a priest and minister to God

In many institutional models, this will be agreed to doctrinally but practically the clergy will dominate as the minister. It's unbiblical. Yes there is a place for elders, teachers, evangelists, etc. But the NT is clear that these are gifts/functions of God for the edifying of the body, not positions of authority over others.

I agree it's about the heart and 'not the orginization', but the heart must be jealous for what God intended. If His death on the cross opened up the way for us to have access to the Father, and we all have become a royal priesthood through His blood, then we do well to encourage and promote that.


 2009/6/9 11:03Profile
rainydaygirl
Member



Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742


 Re:

Just thought I would share some of an article I read this morning. I think it fits pretty well with your thoughts about church.
++++++

Seeing GOD Affects the Way You See CHURCH

But in truth, God means for the Church, the Body of Christ, to be viewed with an awe, and if we aren’t viewing it that way, then we aren’t seeing it properly. In those who first saw the Church, there was a transition that took place. It was reported that those early believers “were filled with awe” when they saw the Church. Something very dramatic happened in their lives to the extent that they all abandoned their separate lives and were together and had everything in common. It’s not just, “Yeah, yeah, I know. They loved Jesus. They gave their life to the Messiah who they realized had come. They repented of acts that lead to death.” Something else happened, too. They were devoted to the apostles’ teaching, to fellowship, to prayer, and to the breaking of bread—all these things have to do with other people and have to do with the Church. They instantly had a regard for the Household of God as something much more than a loose-knit affiliation of people who each believed in God. It was not just about praying in their prayer closets and then acknowledging these other people, “Well, they are Christians, too. I’m going to live for God, and they are going to live for God. So, we ought to at least try to get along and attend something together regularly.” That isn’t how the believers 2,000 years ago viewed the Church.

Instead, the way they viewed the Church affected every ounce of their being. When they saw the House of God, the gate of Heaven, something radical happened in the way they began to function with one another. They now saw their lives as actually belonging to each other, rather than themselves. It wasn’t just simply, “I believe the Messiah has come.” Something happened in the way they viewed other people. Something about Christ with His Head in heaven and His feet on earth was awe-inspiring to them and had a dramatic effect on their lives. It was a dreadful thing, not in the negative sense of course, but there was something very awe-inspiring about who Jesus was and is in His People on this earth. They saw it and they responded to it.

rdg

 2009/6/9 11:25Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

Mattie wrote:
I don't think the issue is where you meet. There are no rules where to meet with other believers. It could be a house, a building, or an office.

However, the key issue that needs to be discussed regarding the reason many are leaving the 'institutional' structure is because of what the whole new covenant stands for....

1. Christ lives in every believer.
2. Every believer is a priest and minister to God

In many institutional models, this will be agreed to doctrinally but practically the clergy will dominate as the minister. It's unbiblical. Yes there is a place for elders, teachers, evangelists, etc. But the NT is clear that these are gifts/functions of God for the edifying of the body, not positions of authority over others.

I agree it's about the heart and 'not the orginization', but the heart must be jealous for what God intended. If His death on the cross opened up the way for us to have access to the Father, and we all have become a royal priesthood through His blood, then we do well to encourage and promote that.



Yes, very well said. This vital functioning of all believers as a kingdom of priests is held as a doctrinal tenet by the Protestant churches, but that's about as far as it ever goes. Take your pick of any of the churches advertising in the Saturday newspaper, and go there next Sunday. I can tell you what you will find (and so can you tell me)... and it will not be this beautiful corporate priesthood you are speaking of.

...And so you're right: it doesn't really matter where we meet. In a home, a rented hall, out in the trees... whatever. But there must be a seeking that acknowledges it is Christ Himself who is the "minister of the Sanctuary," and not the "pastor" up at the front. When there is a jealous concern for His lordship, there will be liberty for each one to function as God intends... even the pastor. He, too (as you said) is given of God for the edifying of the body... but it is a sad setup when the whole thing is always left up to him, to this one man.

...What would we think of a body whose only working part was one of its hands?

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/6/9 14:21Profile









 Re:

The last few posts were great.

Now the question remains, what would the Lord have us do about things, if anything?

 2009/6/9 14:30
Mattie
Member



Joined: 2004/7/23
Posts: 210


 Re:

I believe there are several things that are necessary to advance God's purposes...

1. Stay humble. When pursuing Christ in such a setting as the one we are describing, there should not be an "us vs. them" mentality (institutional vs. home church). That is an elitist spirit and not the heart of God. We need to realize that the family of God exists in all settings, if they genuinely have repented and looked to Christ.

2. Learn from believers/pioneers who are meeting this way. Frank Viola is one. Art Katz is another brother who has spent years gathering in such way, though in more of a community oriented fashion. History has shown believers who have gathered this way. But we do well to especially heed the wisdom of those in our present day who are living like this.

3. Lay down all agendas and seek Jesus Christ with other like-minded brothers and sisters. Have no plans. Lay down all selfish ambition. Seek Jesus. Let Him have preeminence in and through every member of the body. Walk in love toward one another and serve one another, in keeping with the balance of being jealous for the Truth and remaining in the confines of what is Scriptural.

4. Share this with other believers. Share what God is doing. There truly is a reformation taking place. God is opening the eyes of believers across the country to return to simplicity and unity together.

5. Pray that the Holy Spirit acts on the hearts of others to convict of Truth and Righteousness.

This is my own opinions as to what is healthy to be done.

 2009/6/9 20:58Profile









 Re:

I agree. I would also add not to be afraid. I've noticed that the thing which many people that I've come across have had problems with is fear. Fear of not having fellowship, fear of not going to 'church', fear to be heard, etc...

 2009/6/9 21:14
Mattie
Member



Joined: 2004/7/23
Posts: 210


 Re:

Another thing to be prepared for is to be labeled. Mark my words, you will be labeled a rebel for following this kind of path. You will be misunderstood. You will be labeled as one who has been wounded and is bitter and that is why you are on the path you are on.

In times like that, bless such people. Love them. Pray for them. And thank God for the opportunity to be reviled for His name sake.

 2009/6/9 22:10Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy