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KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: If Noah, who was not born again, was a preacher of righteousness . .

Noah wasn't merely a preacher of righteousness, he was righteous, and found favor with God. If God declares you righteous, you cannot help but become born again, no matter what dispensation you were born under. When God declares you righteous, you actually become what God says you are by the power of His creative word, through the quickening of the Holy Spirit. I find it fascinating that Paul uses two old testament saints, Abraham and David, to build his theology of justification and a (regenerated) circumcised heart on, in Romans 3 through 4.

How else could it have been that in Noah's time that men's hearts and minds were continually focused on evil, while Noah was pure except for the miracle of the new birth? Most of us are not even so pure in our own thought life as righteous Noah was... and he was living in the old dispensation!


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/5/26 6:29Profile









 Re: If Noah, who was not born again, was a preacher of righteousness . .

Hi KJ,

What?

Paul never suggests Abraham was born again.

That is the whole point of explaining that it was his agreement with God's word to him, which [u]God[/u] counted as righteousness.

Under the New Covenant, there are many differences, especially that Christ is our righteousness and it is quite a different experience than Noah or Abraham ever had.

Note also, both those OT saints were before Moses, when Paul clearly stated that death reigned.

The idea of being 'born again' had never been mentioned until Jesus used the terminology to Nicodemus. But, Noah sought favour with God, and found it. His father had been alive with Adam, and interestingly, Noah also overlapped with Abraham for quite a few years.

The writer to the Hebrews refers to Moses as 'a servant' in the house of Israel, whereas Jesus said to Peter 'then are the children free'.

There's a very big difference.

 2009/5/26 6:45
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Paul never suggests Abraham was born again.



It is poor theology to split Paul's theology of justification and regeneration apart from each other. Paul's doctrine of justification is intimately wrapped together with his doctrine of regeneration, of which he used two old testament saints to prove his doctrine.

Quote:

Under the New Covenant, there are many differences, especially that Christ is our righteousness and it is quite a different experience than Noah or Abraham ever had.



"The Lord Our Righteousness" is very much an Old Testament concept, especially in the writings of Jeremiah.

Quote:

Note also, both those OT saints were before Moses, when Paul clearly stated that death reigned.



Death reigned, yes, but he also said during this time grace much more abounded.

Quote:

The idea of being 'born again' had never been mentioned until Jesus used the terminology to Nicodemus.



The idea of a "circumcised heart," (being born again) is Old Testament lingo for the new birth, which is why Jesus was so surprised that Nicodemus, as a teacher of Israel, didn't understand.

Quote:

The writer to the Hebrews refers to Moses as 'a servant' in the house of Israel, whereas Jesus said to Peter 'then are the children free'.



Actually, Hebrews teaches that Moses was a servant of the household of faith, whereas Jesus was the builder of it. If you carefully read Hebrews 3:1-6, you will notice there is only one household. Jesus is the builder, Moses is the slave. 1 Cor 10:4 also makes it clear, the children of Israel drank from the same spiritual rock that we do.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/5/26 7:00Profile









 Re:

Quote:

KingJimmy wrote:
Noah wasn't merely a preacher of righteousness, he was righteous, and found favor with God.



Yes! And that was the reason he was chosen.

Quote:
If God declares you righteous, you cannot help but become born again, no matter what dispensation you were born under.



Rebirth birth has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Quote:
When God declares you righteous, you actually become what God says you are by the power of His creative word, through the quickening of the Holy Spirit.



And all who were declared so bu God in the OT still never went to heaven when the died. How come?

Quote:
How else could it have been that in Noah's time that men's hearts and minds were continually focused on evil, while Noah was pure except for the miracle of the new birth? Most of us are not even so pure in our own thought life as righteous Noah was... and he was living in the old dispensation!



It never requires a new birth to be righteous. It does require the new birth to live by the righteousness of Jesus Christ and those who are born again are required to live by His righteousness. However, Noah was never born again and was the last one of his generation who had not yet succumbed to the temptation of unrighteous acts of evil.

#1. The new birth was not possible. That should be elementary to anyone who understands John 3.3 and 5. The very first experience of new birth was John 20.22. Note, speaking of the disciples, that this is after justification by faith and redemption by the Blood, this occurred and not before.. Romans 5.1. It is vitally important that this is understood.

 2009/5/26 7:17









 Re: If Noah, who was not born again, was a preacher of righteousness . .

Hi KJ,

I lost the post I'd prepared a few minutes ago, and don't want to re-write it right now.

Perhaps you could explain - 'if' Noah and Abraham were 'born again' - why the Son of God become Man, and died on a cross?

I have always understood the work of the cross as an essential pre-requisite for new birth; how do you do away with it for those Old Testament saints, and what was the purpose of the Law of Moses, if new birth was possible without it?

 2009/5/26 8:15









 Re:

I feel my head beginning to hurt... lol

Krispy

 2009/5/26 8:18









 Re:

"Lately he appears to be attempting to use the methods of diaprax to get others to accept his different doctrinal positions. For those who are not familar with diaprax, the method goes something like this; The facilitator (Intense in this case) attempts to interrogate a person regarding their position on an issue. This is done by using a series of select questions that will most effectively break down the persons confidence in his position" Inthelight

Thank you Ron, this explains a lot of questions I had concerning not just doctrine but motives. I'm afraid there are more here as well.

The only way I could have described it without knowing the actual 'techniques' is 'circular theological argument' that never seems designed for any conclusion except that which the poster presents. The good news is that after awhile they stick out like a sore thumb even though the bait is often taken.

These issues you presented don't just go to doctrine, but character. Anything designed to be less than honest and/or transparent in motive is deceptive. They seem to thrive on constantly presenting and arguing over 'theological wedge issues'.

It seems some on here do this as technique to introduce a particular doctrine, or just to stir the pot up. Either scenario in this motive wreaks of bad fruit!!!!

 2009/5/26 8:58
anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Intense,

Noah may have not been born again, but He was at least under the influence of the Holy Spirit and it was upon Him and working with Him.

If you read of David you will see much of the Spirit's work and how He had a heart after God's own heart.

I cannot say for sure but it could be that these men were actually born again though it was not fully revealed.

No man under the Law or Old Covenant could keep it by Himself for all have sinned and if it is by that standard they would all be consumed. So, you cannot say first you cannot say that when God called Him righteous that He meant he was perfect enough to keep the law perfectly his whole life nor that he was able to do it alone apart from the Spirit.

Also, you are trying to distinguish between living a righteous life and living by the righteousness of Jesus Christ and there is actually no difference. The law if perfect and so is Christ. Christ is not more perfect then the Law.

"IF" also you are saying that the OT men of God did not make it into the Kingdom at all then you are wrong in that.

Noah didn't find favor with God because of his own righteousness in the sense that you are saying. He was made righteous by faith as it says in Hebrews. Yes this faith is mingled with works but it is not the works that save you but merely the faith that produces works. It was Noah's faith/trust/belief/humility/dependence/surrender to God that made Him righteous. Once again it is not works that saves you but faith in Christ that will in turn result in works as fruit.

You cannot take isolate one passage and make a doctrine out of it you have to look at the whole of scripture and divide it rightly accordingly. Anyone can take out single verse or even a few and make just about any doctrine they want, though it be false.

 2009/5/26 9:07Profile









 Re:

Quote:

anonymity wrote:
Intense,

Noah may have not been born again, but He was at least under the influence of the Holy Spirit and it was upon Him and working with Him.

If you read of David you will see much of the Spirit's work and how He had a heart after God's own heart.

I cannot say for sure but it could be that these men were actually born again though it was not fully revealed.



Impossible. Their best shot in the OT was Justification by faith, in God. By his faith in God, Noah found favor. What can be the argument with that?

Quote:
No man under the Law or Old Covenant could keep it by Himself for all have sinned and if it is by that standard they would all be consumed. So, you cannot say first you cannot say that when God called Him righteous that He meant he was perfect enough to keep the law perfectly his whole life nor that he was able to do it alone apart from the Spirit.



Keeping anything was dependent upon faith in God. Law keeping, that pleased God, was evidence of that faith. Job demonstrated that result.

Quote:
Also, you are trying to distinguish between living a righteous life and living by the righteousness of Jesus Christ and there is actually no difference. The law if perfect and so is Christ. Christ is not more perfect then the Law.



For you to say that is to reveal you haven't read most posts very well nor are you grasping what Paul taught on the matter.

Quote:
"IF" also you are saying that the OT men of God did not make it into the Kingdom at all then you are wrong in that.



Given Jn 3.3 and 5, how so?

Quote:
Noah didn't find favor with God because of his own righteousness in the sense that you are saying.



Not so again. His faith in God produced a righteousness that was not self-righteousness.

Quote:
He was made righteous by faith as it says in Hebrews. Yes this faith is mingled with works but it is not the works that save you but merely the faith that produces works. It was Noah's faith/trust/belief/humility/dependence/surrender to God that made Him righteous. Once again it is not works that saves you but faith in Christ that will in turn result in works as fruit.



Yep however, in Noah's case, it could only be faith in God. Jesus wasn't born and the Holy Spirit wasn't given. Elementary stuff, my friend.. .

Quote:
You cannot take isolate one passage and make a doctrine out of it you have to look at the whole of scripture and divide it rightly accordingly. Anyone can take out single verse or even a few and make just about any doctrine they want, though it be false.

:-)

Please turn that comment to yourself. I have just given you reasons to.

 2009/5/26 9:36
anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Intense,

Quote:
Their best shot in the OT was Justification by faith, in God.


Jesus is God. Therefore if they had faith in God they had it in Jesus. The Gospel was preached to them for one instance Eve was told that her seed would smash Satan's head.

I will still say that even if they were not born again in a concealed way that they were seriously influenced by the Holy Spirit and therefore it was not by them but the grace of God for by nature man is enslaved to sin.

I was also saying that Noah was not righteous before God because of His own works of righteousness but by His faith which resulted in righteousness.

Job did not keep God's law perfectly He came to a point of practicing righteousness but He was not perfect.

Quote:
For you to say that is to reveal you haven't read most posts very well nor are you grasping what Paul taught on the matter.


From what I have read in this thread I have only seen 2 posts. I meant to write IF you are saying this. It sounded like you were saying Noah was saved by His works. Therefore I thought you were saying that. I understand what Paul says on the matter it is what you were saying that I was unclear of.

Given the fact that Enoch was taken to be with God how so?





Quote:
Yep however, in Noah's case, it could only be faith in God. Jesus wasn't born and the Holy Spirit wasn't given. Elementary stuff, my friend.. .


Once again it was His faith in God but Jesus is God so therefore it was His faith in Jesus plus the Gospel was preached to them beforehand. Jesus has always been as the Logos and some would even argue that He appeared to Moses and other as a Theophany. The Spirit may not have been given in the exact sense as after Jesus sent it but it was on the earth it was upon Samson it was in the Temple it was over the seas it was causing some to prophesy it was also giving men hearts after God's own heart.

Please be more clear about what you believe and what your aim is so that there is more clarity instead of revealing you stances piece by piece as you please and as favors your debating tactics.

 2009/5/26 10:13Profile





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