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 Re:

I consider Tozer to be my Christian grandfather. I absolutely love the man.

 2009/5/25 1:15









 Re:

To ChrisJD:

Should We Never Judge?


"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment"; and "You have rightly judged."; and "Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right?"; and "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves". (Jesus' Words in John 7:24; Luke 7:43, 12:57 and Matt. 23:15)




[b]There is an extremely serious error that is being believed by the vast majority of people in body of Christ today. This error is literally making those folks unwilling and unable to discern truth. And what is this error? It is believing that all "judgment" is wrong.[/b] If this is true, then what is to be made of Jesus' Words above? In the verses above, Jesus clearly commands people to judge, commends people for judging, and judges himself.

[b]The key point to understand is that NOT ALL judgment is wrong, just various types of judgment. The types of judgment that are wrong according to Jesus are condemnation, as well as hypocritical and self-righteous judgment. On the other hand, right judgment is commended by Jesus as we see above. Right judgment includes the judging of truth versus falsehood. The sincere, serious and sober judgment of our own sins, as well as the gentle, and compassionate judgment and correction of other's beliefs or sins.


What is the matter with 'judging'?

Tragically, Satan is doing a masterful job in christianity's organizations in regard to confusing people over the issue of "judgment". People have been lead to believe that it is "un-loving" to correct someone who is in error, whether by word or deed. Certainly many have contributed to Satan's lie of "don't judge anyone" by being harsh, ungracious or unmerciful in their judgments. It is easy for a person - after being excoriated by a modern day Pharisee who is telling them that they are going to hell if they don't believe something that Jesus doesn't even address - to be pushed to believe that all "judgment" is wrong.

In like manner, many more have contributed to Satan's lie by taking the position that anything said to correct someone, no matter how gently done, is "ungracious" or unloving. These folks are the counterfeit believers who dogmatically state that all judgment is wrong (except their own of course!), especially the kind that points out the falsehoods they are believing. I can't count how many times have I heard the accusation, "oh, brother, you should not say that those who believe the doctrine's of the christian church are in error - that is judging them and Jesus says we are not to judge others. You are being divisive by your judgment. You need to come to an understanding of Jesus' love…" Notice how I am judged as "un-loving" comparing Christianities beliefs with Jesus' Words. I could be the kindest, most gentle, caring, compassionate, giving, selfless person on the planet (which I am not), but if I believe that the teachings of christianity lead people away from Jesus, then I am judged as "un-loving" and usually much worse. Ironic, isn't it? That when I try to point out how a teaching of Jesus contradicts a doctrine of christianity, I will be judged as a heretic or worse? So, while I try to look at a belief that someone holds, and they don't like the truth that I might be bringing, they are only too quick to break their own "don't be judgmental" belief to condemn my person.

Guess who is being judged as un-loving and divisive in these last days? The True and Real Jesus himself is being judged as un-loving and divisive, for he said, "I am the Way, the truth and the Life, and no one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6). Of course the Jesus that christianity creates is approved however.

'Watch out - you better not judge'

Surely you have either been accused yourself, or have been the accuser, saying to someone something like, "you had better be careful, brother, you are judging someone and Jesus says we are not to judge". Normally, this response comes when you have said (or have heard someone say) something that is perceived as negative (in reality probably corrective) about some person or belief or event or organization.

The truth is we all make judgments all the time. If you see a man beating up a young child, you will make a judgment that his behavior is wrong and needs to be stopped. If you hear a person say something you perceive as negative about your mother or children, then you will immediately judge that person's words! If you decide not to go into a certain neighborhood during the evening hours, then you are making a judgment. As you listen to some preacher say that God commands you this night to give your entire savings account to his ministry, you will make a judgment. As you are reading my words in this article, you are judging them against your understanding of what is truth. This is a good thing, for the Lord commands it (John 4:24, 8:32), and it is part of the rational mind that God gave us to seek truth.

Telling people not to judge is irrational, for in doing so, you yourself have judged their words or actions, and that is why you told them not to judge! As soon as you tell someone not to judge, you yourself have judged their opinion or judgment as somehow wrong. This can make for an irrational go around of accusations of 'you better not judge'. The real issue that must be recognized before the emotions get too impassioned, is what is the truth regarding the matter at hand. Instead of accusing one another of 'judging', what should happen is the more spiritually mature person should ask the all important question, "what does Jesus say in regard to this issue?" This is always the proper way out from accusations of "judge not". Sadly, in many circumstances, those accusing another of 'judging' are not interested in what Jesus has to say, but rather in protecting their own incorrect opinions or tightly held traditions of men of which christianity is full.

How to Judge the Lord's Way

How do we untangle this mess about "judging"? The solution is not difficult to understand, but it is difficult to live by. If you will remember and live by these next four principles of Jesus regarding judgment, you will be walking according to the Lord's mercy and truth in this extremely important matter of "judging".

First, we are to judge all things (people's behavior and words/beliefs) against Jesus' Words, for Jesus, who is the Word of God, is the standard of truth (John 14:6; 17:17).
(In regard to this first principle of judging, it is extremely important to distinguish between a person's beliefs/doctrine versus their amoral behaviors or physical characteristics. We are to carefully judge all beliefs against Jesus' teachings, and we are NOT to judge people's amoral behavior. Amoral behavior means non-faith customs, traditions, ceremonies or actions that have no moral or spiritual implication. For example, the way someone brushes their teeth, or how or what someone eats, or the manner of their speaking, etc. We are also not to judge someone's physical appearance i.e. their body shape, skin color or facial structure.)

Second, when judging other's behaviors and words, we are to be careful that we are not committing similar sins or errors (Matt. 7:1-6). To be correcting someone for a sin that we have not gained control over (by the power of the Holy Spirit) is hypocritical.
Third, we are to be slow to judge and quick to listen and to forgive (Matt. 7:1-6, 6:14-15).
Fourth and finally, we are not to condemn anyone as hopelessly beyond the reach of God's mercy (Luke 6:37). The follower of Jesus should never tell someone, "you're going to end up in hell, period". Not even Jesus - the only one to ascend into heaven (John 3:13), and thus could justly give that judgment, and who certainly knew many people who were going to end up in hell - brought that condemnation.
'Well, O.K, but we are not to judge the heart…'

Often, when trying to point out to someone that someone's beliefs might be wrong, and they don't want to hear that their favorite teacher is leading them away from Jesus, they will say, 'Oh, but we are not to judge the heart'. Now, even if you said nothing about the person's "heart", or the organization's leader's motivations, many people will still try to force you to stop exposing the falsehood by using this emotional battering ram. Who wants to condemn someone's heart? No one, and we shouldn't regarding how the mercy of God might minister to them at the moment or in the future. In addition, we certainly are not to judge the motives of men's hearts, for only the Lord knows for certain the 'why' of someone's actions or words (Jer. 17:9; Matt. 13:28-30; Luke 8:17, 16:15; John 2:24, 25). But, dear reader, this does not mean we are not to correct then, or point out that their thought (or "heart") on the matter, is sinful. For Jesus says, "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man." (Matthew 15:18) If I am defiling myself before God and am ignorant about it, I would appreciate someone telling me so that I could stop!

Let us take a look at a few men other than Jesus who made some pretty serious judgments in the New Testament.

First, the sent one Peter said to a man named Simon, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God…For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity." (Acts 8:20-23)

Now, for the 'don't judge the heart' folks, it appears Peter is sinning here. But if a person believes that all scripture is "God's Word", then that person would have to reconcile their "don't judge the heart" belief with this statement of Peter. Peter clearly says, "…for your heart is not right in the sight of God…" Cleary, Peter is "judging the heart" of Simon in this passage. Peter must have had these words of Jesus in mind in this situation: "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man." (Matthew 15:18). When Peter saw Simon's actions, and heard the words of Simon's mouth, he could make a correct judgment about the man's heart i.e. that it was "not right in the sight of God". He judged the fruit, not the unspoken motivation. We should keep Jesus' command in Matt. 7:1-6 close to our heart before making such a judgment.

Peter makes a similar judgment in Acts 5:4 against a man named Ananias. In that case, he said to Ananias, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit…Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." Again, we see Peter judging a man's actions and words to arrive at a judgment regarding the man's heart - and quite a strong judgment at that i.e. "…Satan filled your heart…" Again, this author is not saying that Peter's actions were right. But what I am saying is that for those who believe both the doctrine of biblical inerrancy; and the popular doctrine of "don't judge a person's heart"; that these texts provide contradictions for those who hold both those beliefs.[/b]

[b][color=993300]Twisting Jesus' Words: Matthew 7:1-2[/color][/b]

[b]Probably the most mis-interpreted and thus the most mis-understood verse on this matter of judgment is Matt. 7:1-6. Here, Jesus gives us His command regarding the wrong type of judgment - the judgment in hypocrisy. Jesus says, "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." Let us examine these verses a little more closely.

The reason these verses have so much force behind them is because they are spoken by the the Father's beloved only begotton Son. Jesus can condemn hypocrisy perfectly and soundly because of who he is - the sinless Son of God. Thus, when we read his words here, we should be heavily impacted by them and desire to be slow to judge people (Jesus in Matt. 5-7 is giving commands to his disciples, and in 7:3 says "your brother's eye"). However, what is equally clear is that Jesus doesn't contradict himself, and yet he clearly, on other occasions, commanded men to make judgments (John 7:24; Luke 7:43, 12:57). If you interpret his Words as meaning "You are not to judge", then Jesus clearly broke His own command on numerous occasions (Matt. 23, John 8). If you believe this, then his breaking his own commands would make him a hypocrite, and thus would disqualify him from being God's Messiah. If you are a true follower of Jesus, then you will not end up at this conclusion and will seek a little deeper.

The key verse and word for understanding Matt. 7:1-6 properly is found in verse 5, and that word is "hypocrite". If you recall the four points of judgment given above, Jesus is addressing point number two here, the second most important point. Jesus is dealing with hypocritical judgment in these verses. It addresses one of our biggest problems as people who retain the sinful nature. We are so quick to judge others more strictly than we judge ourselves. Our own sins always look so much worse on other people! [link to Ignoring the One You Love?] If we stop and solemnly examine our own walk before the Lord, we should arrive at the conclusion that to avoid hypocrisy, we really ought to be slow to judge! This problem cannot be overstated too much. In fact, it is the primary problem stemming from our pride, which leads us to walk according to our flesh rather than abiding in the Son.

In fact, the main point Jesus wants us to understand from these verses is that we are not to judge hypocritically, and thus we are to judge slowly, patiently and mercifully. However, these verses certainly do not teach that we are never to try and correct those who are erring. This truth is born out by two important phrases in these verses. First, verse 5 which states, "Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." Obviously Jesus is allowing for humble, compassionate judgment here by saying that after you understand your own struggle with sin, THEN you can help your brother with his sin. Again, his whole point is that we are not to judge hypocritically or self-righteously.

The second point that reinforces the fact that Jesus does not condemn all judgment in these verses in Matt. 7, is verse 6. It is a curious verse seemingly out of place after verse 5 and before verse 7, but it is in just the right place. It is a follow up on verse 5. What it is teaching is that if you do approach your brother - the one mentioned in verse 5 with the speck in his eye - with humility and true compassionate love, and he/she rejects your gentle correction, then they are to be avoided as those disregarding the Lord's commands and yet claiming to be his disciples. The implication of this is far reaching - I hope the reader meditates on this truth until he/she understands it.

This principle is the same one Jesus states in the upcoming Matt. 18:15ff. In Matt. 18:15ff, the Lord lays out the type of discipline that is to be occurring within the local Families of believers. In summary, the principle is that if someone calling themselves a follower of Jesus, is involved in unrepentant sin, then that person is to be corrected with increasing levels of earnestness. If that person rejects the attempts of the other disciples to bring correction, then they are to be avoided, in as much as they are to be treated as, "heathen and tax collectors" (Matt.18:17). Matt. 7:6 has the same meaning as Matt. 18:17. Thus, at the end of the "judgment" passage, Jesus teaches we are to stay away from whose who say they are his disciples, yet who reject him and his ways.

In summary, those who are quick to castigate someone with Matt. 7:1-2 must do so by wrenching the scripture out of context and ignoring the following verses 3 - 6. This is most unfortunate, and might be a sign that the individual who does so is not walking in the Lord's truth and holiness.[/b]

[b][color=993300]Conclusion

Truth cannot be found without searching for it. Logic is useless if people are unwilling to take a few steps into the argument to find the truth. All truth that is eternally important is found in Jesus' Words and truth is understood and received by the enlightenment of the Spirit. Jesus was so concerned about the truth that He said regarding himself, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." Jesus was so concerned about the truth that He said regarding the Holy Spirit, "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak, and He will tell you things to come." (John 16:13). Jesus was so concerned about the truth that He said regarding His Father, "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your Word is truth." (John 17:17) Jesus was so concerned about the truth that He said regarding his salvation, "If you abide in My Word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

It is remarkable that what is written above is not understood by most men and women under 65 years of age - that those professing to believe in the one who says he is the Truth - are believing that all correction of a person's DOCTRINE IS SINFUL JUDMENTALISM! Jesus' Words PROVE that this irrational position of 'judge nothing' is wrong. The truth is that the FALSE GOSPEL OF SELF ESTEEM PREACHED BY SO MANY PSYCHOLOGIZERS OF THE FAITH, HAS CONTRIBUTED HEAVILY TO BELIEVING THE FALSEHOOD THAT ALL "JUDGMENT" IS WRONG. The psychologizers have labeled all corrective judgment as "negative" or "harsh" or their favorite, "un-loving".

The only type of judgment approved by the psychologizers is "positive" or "uplifting" or encouraging" "advise" [link to Can 'Christian' Psychology Help Me?]. Yes, believers are to encourage one another IN THE FAITH, for there is far too little encouraging of one another. Yet we cannot follow Jesus without a love for him and for his Words which he says are the Truth.

Blindness and confusion reign these days in christian body of Christ, and mostly from the younger believers. How we ought to have a strong passion and desire to avoid being the object of these Words of the Son of the Father, "depart from Me, for I never knew you".

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Sincerely,

Walter
[/color][/b]

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:
Quote:
This is what we call the acid test of love -- does a man obey the commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ? It makes no difference how much we talk about our love if we do not obey Christ. It is obedience that counts, not words. Obedience without love is theoretically possible, but love without obedience is, in practice, impossible. It is a satanic substitute for God's plan.





"...My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [i]whether[/i] I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him."


John 7:16-18(KJV)



"I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him."


John 8:26(KJV)




"My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [i]is[/i] a perfect man, [i]and[/i] able also to bridle the whole body. Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body. Behold also the ships, which though [i]they be[/i] so great, and [i]are[/i] driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth. Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! And the tongue [i]is[/i] a fire, a world of iniquity; so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell."


James 3:1-6(KJV)




"And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins. Use hospitality one to another without grudging. As every man hath received the gift, [i]even so[/i] minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If any man speak, [i]let him speak[/i] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [i]let him do it[/i] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion forever and ever. Amen."



1Peter 4:8-11(KJV)



"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themseves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. But we will not boast of things without [i]our[/i] measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you. For we stretch not ourselves beyond [i]our measure[/i], as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in [i]preaching[/i] the gospel of Christ:"


2Corinthians 10:12-14(KJV)



[i]Edited to correct an ommision in verse number[/i]

 2009/5/25 2:29
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2009


 Re: Reasoning from the Word of God

Acts 20:27-32 for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he purchased with his own blood.
I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.
Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears.
And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.


Tit 1:7-14 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not self-willed, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
For there are many disorderly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of sordid gain.
One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
This testimony is true: wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men that turn from the truth.

Acts 6:9,10 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia, and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.
And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke. (the word translated dispute in vs. 9 is suzēteō
Thayer Definition:
1) to seek or examine together
2) in the NT to discuss, dispute, question
Part of Speech: verb)

Acts 19:8-10 And he went into the synagogue, and spoke boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spoke evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
And this continued for the space of two years; so that all they who dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks. (the word translated disputing in verses 8 and 9 is dialegomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to think different things with one’s self, mingle thought with thought
1a) to ponder, revolve in mind
2) to converse, discourse with one, argue, discuss
Part of Speech: verb

and the word translated persuading in verse 8 is
peithō which Thayer's first definition says,
Thayer Definition:
1) persuade
1a) to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins are as scarlet, they shall be white as snow, though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (the word translated reason is yâkach
yaw-kakh'
A primitive root; to be right (that is, correct); reciprocally to argue; causatively to decide, justify or convict: - appoint, argue, chasten, convince, correct (-ion), daysman, dispute, judge, maintain, plead, reason (together), rebuke, reprove (-r), surely, in any wise.

Acts 8:29-31 Then the Spirit said to Philip, Go near and join thyself to this chariot.
And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up, and sit with him. (the word translated guide in vs. 31 is hodēgeō
hod-ayg-eh'-o
to show the way (literally or figuratively teach) - guide, lead.

Many more passages from the Word of God may be cited to support that not only is it necessary to dispute,dialogue,reason,persuade,guide and teach by exposition and explanation,but that it is commanded as well.

Yet there are some men who'd decry such truths under the guise of their being more spiritual by merely quoting Scripture. We must remember that satan did this as well with the utmost of pride in his being. Of course the Christ of God, Jesus the Word become flesh immediately responded with the Truth of the Word,not to be taken captive by the cunning craftiness of such subtle deception.

May we be on guard against such and do the same with the help and by the grace of His Holy Spirit of Truth which lives and abides in us His elect children. Rejoicing in hope and with thanksgiving for His grace toward us with all the host of heaven even His elect angels.

1 Tim 5:21 I charge thee before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

 2009/5/25 2:54Profile
wayneman
Member



Joined: 2009/1/24
Posts: 454
Michigan

 Re:

waltern,

Your doctrine is Tozerologically unsound. In fact, in "Man, the Dwelling Place of God," he seems to blame guys like you for the deplorable state of the church:

What is generally overlooked is that Fundamentalism, as it spread throughout the various denominations and nondenominational groups, fell victim to its own virtues. The Word died in the hands of its friends. ... An unofficial hierarchy decided what Christians were to believe. Not the Scriptures, but what the scribe thought the Scriptures meant became the Christian creed. Christian colleges, seminaries, Bible institutes, Bible conferences, popular Bible expositors all joined to promote the cult of textualism. The system of extreme dispensationalism which was devised, relieved the Christian of repentance, obedience and cross-carrying in any other than the most formal sense. Whole sections of the New Testament were taken from the church and disposed of after a rigid system of “dividing the Word of truth...”

The error of textualism is not doctrinal. It is more subtle than that and much more difficult to discover, but its effects are just as deadly. Not its theological beliefs are at fault, but its assumptions.

It assumes, for instance, that if we have the word for a thing we have the thing itself. If it is in the Bible, is is in us. If we have the doctrine, we have the experience. If something was true of Paul it is of necessity true of us because we accept Paul’s epistles as divinely inspired. The Bible tells us how to be saved, but textualism goes on to make it tell us that we are saved, something which in the very nature of things it cannot do. Assurance of individual salvation is thus no more than a logical conclusion drawn from doctrinal premises, and the resultant experience wholly mental.

Then came the revolt. The human mind can endure textualism just so long before it seeks a way of escape. So, quietly and quite unaware that any revolt was taking place, the masses of Fundamentalism reacted, not from the teaching of the Bible but from the mental tyranny of the scribes. With the recklessness of drowning men they fought their way up for air and struck out blindly for greater freedom of thought and for the emotional satisfaction their natures demanded and their teachers denied them.

The result over the last 20 years has been religious debauch hardly equaled since Israel worshipped the golden calf. Of us Bible Christians it may truthfully be said that we “sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.” The separating line between the Church and the world as been all but obliterated.

Aside from a few of the grosser sins, the sins of the unregenerated world are now approved by a shocking number of professedly “born-again” Christians, and copied eagerly. Young Christians take as their models the rankest kind of worldlings and try to be as much like them as possible. Religious leaders have adopted the techniques of the advertisters; boasting, baiting and shameless exaggerating are now carried on as normal procedure in church work. The moral climate is not that of the New Testament, but that of Hollywood and Broadway.

Many evangelicals no longer initiate; they imitate, and the world is their model. The holy faith of our fathers has in many places been made a form of entertainment, and the appalling thing is that all of this has been fed down to the masses from the top.


_________________
Wayne Kraus

 2009/5/25 8:35Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Tozer

[i]"Then came the revolt. The human mind can endure textualism just so long before it seeks a way of escape. So, quietly and quite unaware that any revolt was taking place, the masses of Fundamentalism reacted, not from the teaching of the Bible but from the mental tyranny of the scribes. With the recklessness of drowning men they fought their way up for air and struck out blindly for greater freedom of thought and for the emotional satisfaction their natures demanded and their teachers denied them.[/i]"

"mental tyranny"

Quote:
You obviously did not read the link to what Toser had to say.



Quote:
Since you did not read the link, ChrisJD, I will post it here in it's entirety. It is dedicated to you, and others that support your position:



Is this necessary? Two large and unneeded assumptions rather than asking a question (The bane of disputes and cause of strife here continually).

Waltern, your zeal is without question, your approach and manner is often deplorable, it is a form of mental tyranny that loses your hearers, and chokes others, especially here - most are well enough versed on the state of matters including this subject, who is your audience? If it is to vent or to challenge it would be one thing, but to accuse, to setup a 'position' when one was never forwarded ...

Frankly to take the good doctor's intentions and use them in this manner is a a great disservice to him, one that I am sure he would have frowned upon.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2009/5/25 11:12Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi again everyone,


Waltern,



"Since you did not read the link, ChrisJD, I will post it here in it's entirety. It is dedicated to you, and others that support your position:"


I would ask again if you would state what it is you are claiming is my position and what you are basing it upon.


I think this is a reasonable request since you directed this article to me and 'others' who you did not name.


Thank you!



_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/5/25 13:11Profile
JoanM
Member



Joined: 2008/4/7
Posts: 797


 Re: Tozer knew

Thank you, Wayneman, for posting this from Tozer.

[u]Tozer[/u]: “It assumes, for instance, that if we have the word for a thing we have the thing itself. If it is in the Bible, is is in us. If we have the doctrine, we have the experience. If something was true of Paul it is of necessity true of us because we accept Paul’s epistles as divinely inspired. The Bible tells us how to be saved, but textualism goes on to make it tell us that we are saved, something which in the very nature of things it cannot do. Assurance of individual salvation is thus no more than a logical conclusion drawn from doctrinal premises, and the resultant experience wholly mental.”

[u]Tozer[/u]: [b]“It assumes, for instance, that if we have the word for a thing we have the thing itself.”[/b] As Paul knew, Divine Truth is a matter of God's revelation of “the thing itself”. And as Isaiah knew well, ears that are closed still hear [something] without hearing ... and go about their business.

 2009/5/25 13:19Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone,



I think that teaching others can be considered obedience to God, if it is in response to the call of God(Rom 1:1, 1Co 1:1, Eph 4:11), by the gifting of God(Rom 12:6-10, 1Co 12:28,1Ti 4:13-14), with the grace of God(Rom 12:3, 15:15,1Co 15:10), accroding to the working of the Spirit of God(1Co 12:11).


Otherwise, I think it can be an expression of selfwill(John 5:30, Tit 1:7) selfseeking(John 7:16-18, 1Ti 1:5-7, 3Jn 1:9-10), destructive and subversive(Titus 1:10-11), causing division, factions, and heresy(Gal 5:19-20).


That teaching, correction, and reasoning with others is Biblical is without dispute.


That anyone of us can do it without damage to ourselves or others may very well become appearant to others by the fruit that we bear, and that very much visible to all.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/5/25 13:37Profile





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