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 A. W. Tozer said.....

A. W. Tozer had this to say about sound Doctrine:

" Moral power has always accompanied definitive beliefs. [b]Great saints have always been dogmatic. We need right now a return to a gentle dogmatism that smiles while it stands stubborn and firm on the Word of God that liveth and abideth forever.[/b]

[url=http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/tozer/5j00.0010/5j00.0010.37.htm]Tozer--The Importance of Sound Doctrine[/url]


Sincerely,

Walter

 2009/5/24 20:23
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: A. W. Tozer said.....gentle

"Who [i]is[/i] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [i]is[/i] earthly, sensual, devilish.

For where envying and strife [i]is[/i], there [i]is[/i] confusion and every evil work.

But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [i]and[/i] easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace."


- James 3:13-18(KJV)


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/5/24 21:07Profile









 Re: Tozer said NOTHING of GENTLE




To ChrisJD:

You obviously did not read the link to what Toser had to say. What he is addressing is that the state of the Chruch today is a direct result of evangelical Christians being brainwashed about the importance of sound doctrine:

[b]"Little by little evangelical Christians these days are being brainwashed. One evidence is that increasing numbers of them are becoming ashamed to be found unequivocally on the side of truth. They say they believe but their beliefs have been so diluted as to be impossible of clear definition.[/b]

[b]Haziness of doctrine has always been the mark of the liberal. When the Holy Scriptures are rejected as the final authority on religious belief something must be found to take their place. Historically that something has been either reason or sentiment: if sentiment, it has been humanism. Sometimes there has been an admixture of the two, as may be seen in liberal churches today. These will not quite give up the Bible, neither will they quite believe it; the result is an unclear body of beliefs more like a fog than a mountain, where anything may be true but nothing may be trusted as being certainly true.

Certain of our evangelical brethren appear to be laboring under the impression that they are advanced thinkers because they are rethinking evolution and reevaluating various Bible doctrines or even divine inspiration itself; but so far are they from being advanced thinkers that THEY ARE MERELY TIMID FOLLOWERS OF MODERNISM--FIFTY YEARS BEHIND THE PARADE."
[/b]


Since you did not read the link, ChrisJD, I will post it here in it's entirety. It is dedicated to you, and others that support your position:


The Importance of Sound Doctrine

IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE to overemphasize the importance of sound doctrine in the life of a Christian. Right thinking about all spiritual matters is imperative if we would have right living. As men do not gather grapes of thorns nor figs of thistles, sound character does not grow out of unsound teaching.

The word doctrine means simply religious beliefs held and taught. It is the sacred task of all Christians, first as believers and then as teachers of religious beliefs, to be certain that these beliefs correspond exactly to truth. A precise agreement between belief and fact constitutes soundness in doctrine. We cannot afford to have less.

The apostles not only taught truth but contended for its purity against any who would corrupt it. The Pauline epistles resist every effort of false teachers to introduce doctrinal vagaries. John's epistles are sharp with condemnation of those teachers who harassed the young church by denying the incarnation and throwing doubts upon the doctrine of the Trinity; and Jude in his brief but powerful epistle rises to heights of burning eloquence as he pours scorn upon evil teachers who would mislead the saints.

Each generation of Christians must look to its beliefs. While truth itself is unchanging, the minds of men are porous vessels out of which truth can leak and into which error may seep to dilute the truth they contain. The human heart is heretical by nature and runs to error as naturally as a garden to weeds. All a man, a church or a denomination needs to guarantee deterioration of doctrine is to take everything for granted and do nothing. The unattended garden will soon be overrun with weeds; the heart that fails to cultivate truth and root out error will shortly be a theological wilderness; the church or denomination that grows careless on the highway of truth will before long find itself astray, bogged down in some mud flat from which there is no escape.

In every field of human thought and activity accuracy is considered a virtue. To err ever so slightly is to invite serious loss, if not death itself. Only in religious thought is faithfulness to truth looked upon as a fault. When men deal with things earthly and temporal they demand truth; when they come to the consideration of things heavenly and eternal they hedge and hesitate as if truth either could not be discovered or didn't matter anyway.

Montaigne said that a liar is one who is brave toward God and a coward toward men; for a liar faces God and shrinks from men. Is this not simply a proof of unbelief? Is it not to say that the liar believes in men but is not convinced of the existence of God, and is willing to risk the displeasure of a God who may not exist rather than that of man who obviously does?

I think also that deep, basic unbelief is back of human carelessness in religion. The scientist, the physician, the navigator deals with matters he knows are real; and because these things are real the world demands that both teacher and practitioner be skilled in the knowledge of them. The teacher of spiritual things only is required to be unsure in his beliefs, ambiguous in his remarks and tolerant of every religious opinion expressed by anyone, even by the man least qualified to hold an opinion.

Haziness of doctrine has always been the mark of the liberal. When the Holy Scriptures are rejected as the final authority on religious belief something must be found to take their place. Historically that something has been either reason or sentiment: if sentiment, it has been humanism. Sometimes there has been an admixture of the two, as may be seen in liberal churches today. These will not quite give up the Bible, neither will they quite believe it; the result is an unclear body of beliefs more like a fog than a mountain, where anything may be true but nothing may be trusted as being certainly true.

We have gotten accustomed to the blurred puffs of gray fog that pass for doctrine in modernistic churches and expect nothing better, but it is a cause for real alarm that the fog has begun of late to creep into many evangelical churches. From some previously unimpeachable sources are now coming vague statements consisting of a milky admixture of Scripture, science and human sentiment that is true to none of its ingredients because each one works to cancel the others out.

Certain of our evangelical brethren appear to be laboring under the impression that they are advanced thinkers because they are rethinking evolution and reevaluating various Bible doctrines or even divine inspiration itself; but so far are they from being advanced thinkers that they are merely timid followers of modernism-fifty years behind the parade.

Little by little evangelical Christians these days are being brainwashed. One evidence is that increasing numbers of them are becoming ashamed to be found unequivocally on the side of truth. They say they believe but their beliefs have been so diluted as to be impossible of clear definition.

Moral power has always accompanied definitive beliefs. Great saints have always been dogmatic. We need right now a return to a gentle dogmatism that smiles while it stands stubborn and firm on the Word of God that liveth and abideth forever.



Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:
"Who [i]is[/i] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [i]is[/i] earthly, sensual, devilish.

For where envying and strife [i]is[/i], there [i]is[/i] confusion and every evil work.

But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [i]and[/i] easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace."


- James 3:13-18(KJV)

 2009/5/24 21:39
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Dear Waltern,


I don't think that anything was misrepresented by pointing out that Mr. Tozer used the word [i]gentle[/i] in the admonishon to being stubborn about doctrine.



I think that he would have been in agreement with James the Apostle, that the way some people conduct themselves among others causes them to "lie against the truth", and not defend it.




Waltern,


Quote:
It is dedicated to you, and others that support your position:




This isn't the first time you have used this phrase toward me and others. Please consider the ways in which you could be wrong about what you are saying.


Thank you!


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/5/24 22:06Profile









 Re:



To ChrisJD:

My response to you, ChrisJD had to do with your entire post, not just the gentle part of it:

This is what you posted:

Quote:

Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace."


- James 3:13-18(KJV)



My position is that the Church has been compromised by the glad handers, those that think the way is broad, and the door is wide- the wider the better. Thr Doctrine of the Church has been sorely compromised in the past 129 years, ever since the newer Bible versions (perversions) were birthed by the 1881 "revision" of the New Testament by two liberals, who were actually closet catholics.

Now, today, when we see the apostate church forming before our vety eyes, a combination of catholocism, and all of the other religions, including mainstream Christianity as well as Budhism, and other ism's we can see the problem.

What is the problem? Sound Doctrine is no longer being taught in our Churches. It is the old Rodney King story--[b]why can't we all get along?[/b].

We cannot all get along. There is only Doctrine, and only one Lord. Christians that cannot understand that are contributing to the slide of the Church into apostacy.

2 Timothy chapter 2 tells us we are to:

15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

We are all supposedly Christians here, and sound Doctrine must be of the highest importance. And what we post must be supported by Scripture.

Sincerely,

Walter

 2009/5/24 22:53
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi Waltern,


"My response to you, ChrisJD had to do with your entire post, not just the gentle part of it:"


Which was to post James 3:13-18.


But you titled your response to this:


"[b]Tozer said NOTHING of GENTLE[/b]"


But he did.



You also said,


"Since you did not read the link, ChrisJD, I will post it here in it's entirety. It is dedicated to you, and others that support your position:"


What position are you referring to?(EDIT I mean here, what position are you referring to that you are claiming I hold)


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/5/24 22:59Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2009


 Re: Beware of 'satanic sentimentalism'

When Love Divorces Doctrine and Unity Rejects Truth

It is evident that leading neo-evangelicals believe our main goal is to eliminate doctrinal distinctives and to emphasize unity among those claiming to be believers.

One of the basic ideas of today's philosophy of ecumenical evangelism is that love is more important than doctrine. Ecumenical evangelists say that doctrine divides, whereas love unifies. What does the Bible say? Is it true that in the New Testament love is more important than doctrine, or Truth? In the so-called Love chapter of 1 Corinthians 13, we are told:

Now abideth in faith, hope, love, these three, but the greatest of these is love (agape).

Some say -- That settles it: love is supreme! But when we examine that chapter more carefully, we discover that Truth is also mentioned in the chapter. In verse 6 we are told that, love rejoices in the truth. In other words, faith, hope, and love are virtues but Truth has an altogether different status. It is the frame of reference, the foundation, the atmosphere without which virtues such as love cannot exist at all.

Love rejoices in the truth. Why? Because without Truth to define it, to interpret it, to protect it, to guide it, to channel it -- love can become a total disaster. We dare not place Truth on the same level as virtues. Virtues would shrivel up and die if it were not for Truth.

We cannot imagine life on this planet without water. Water is absolutely essential for life, as long as it stays within proper channels, within its canals, aqueduct, and pipes. But when water gets out of control, it is the second greatest catastrophe that can happen to this planet, second only to fire. On the one hand, it is an absolute blessing, but on the other hand, it can be a total disaster. So it is with love.

God's Definition Of Love

Love without divine definition (God's revealed channels within which it must flow) becomes the most horrible thing on earth. It can destroy human beings by the millions, and can be reduced to satanic sentimentalism.

Love, as defined by God, is doing for a person that which is best for him in the light of eternity, no matter what the cost may be. That is how it is defined by God. Somehow, when it comes to world evangelism, many people have forgotten God's definitions and have fallen into sentimentalism. Consider some key Scriptures which illustrate the distinction between love and Truth.

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. -- John 8:31,32

Ultimate freedom may only be achieved by total submission -- unconditional surrender to Truth. There is nothing here about love.

Love Obeys The Truth

There are many who speak glowingly of their love for Jesus Christ and for lost men. In John 14:15,21,23,24, He stresses that obedience to Truth is the best form of love:

If ye love me, keep my commandments He that hath my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keeps not my sayings: ...

This is what we call the acid test of love -- does a man obey the commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ? It makes no difference how much we talk about our love if we do not obey Christ. It is obedience that counts, not words. Obedience without love is theoretically possible, but love without obedience is, in practice, impossible. It is a satanic substitute for God's plan.

Love Teaches the Truth

John 21 gives an example of one who said much about his love for Jesus. But when it came to obedience, it was not there. When the pressure came, his resolution collapsed and he denied his Lord. After the resurrection of Jesus, our Lord confronted Peter lovingly, but in truth:

... Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs Feed my sheep Feed my sheep. -- John 21:15-17

How do we express love to the Lord Jesus according to the lesson of this confrontation? By feeding His sheep, as He also commanded in the great commission, by teaching His people and training them in the whole counsel of God, teaching them whatsoever I have commanded you.

In Acts 20, we find a good example of an apostle who obeyed the great commission. He says nothing about love to the Ephesians in this passage. But he exhibited the supreme love of any disciple toward the Ephesians. What did he do for them? Did he say, I love you, I love you, I love you? Acts 20:26-27 gives the answer:

Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Love Leaves Nothing Out

The result was that all which dwelt in Asia, both Jews and Greeks, heard the word of the Lord Jesus. Paul based his evangelism on sound doctrinal instruction. That is God's key for world evangelism. The words of Paul in Galatians 1:6 were blunt and necessary as Paul says in Galatians 4, in order to tell them the Truth.

Ephesians 4 tells us how we can achieve the perfect balance. Note the gifts God gave the true Church, the body of Christ, for service and ministry in this age: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers. -- Ephesians 4:11

Every one of these gifts in the form of a person is a doctrinal person. They are all totally involved in Truth. All were totally involved in preaching, teaching, and discipling in the light of revealed Truth. There is no teaching whatsoever in the New Testament suggesting that love is more important than doctrine or Truth.

Love is referred to in Galatians 4:15 where we read of, speaking the truth in love. Love is the manner and method of speaking Truth. Love is the servant of Truth. It makes it easier to receive, absorb, and digest. But it must never be allowed to eclipse or set aside Truth. God's Truth can never change, but God's Truth in the hands of human messengers is a very delicate and fragile thing.

Love Resists Poisons

There is no living system known to science that can survive without an intricate, elaborate, and constantly-used system to purify itself from poisons. This is true of God's Church. It is impossible for any organization to survive unless it has a system to purify itself from poisonous influences.

We need to remember we are in a highly poisoned environment. We are immersed in Satan's world. He has constant access to every servant of God through his fallen nature. How can the relative success of a Christian's ministry be evaluated apart from God's infallible inerrant Word? Who is to determine what success means?

Love Protects the Flock

Did the Lord Jesus encourage His disciples to listen sympathetically to other religious leaders of that time? His answer is given in Matt. 7:15, Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Yet we are told today by neo-evangelicals that we should both teach and study in liberal universities and colleges of theology. There is one thing worse than division and that is peace with compromise. Truth is infinitely more important than the false unity of the world.

Love Corrects Error

Why? Because for the sake of Truth, even families will be split with hostility so that at least someone within that unit can perpetuate God's Truth. In Romans 16:17 Paul says,

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which causes divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

If we honor and love the Lord Jesus we will watch for anything which may destroy His Truth. We will avoid such people.

A good way of life or good doctrine is always contaminated by a bad environment or bad associations. A mere association of the good with the bad will never make the bad thing better. The good gets worse; the bad does not improve. It is the same with a rotten apple in a barrel. The bad one never gets better, but the good ones go rotten (1 Cor. 15:33). Is it right for doctrinal purity to be blatantly submerged for the sake of worldly ecclesiastical unity? Surely this is a total denial of the Holy Spirit's Word through the Scriptures.

John C. Whitcomb, Jr

 2009/5/24 23:41Profile









 Re:

I've interviewed parents who think 'love' is to let their children do what they please. No boundaries, no parameters, no structure. Now if we are to get our parenting skills as such from the Bible, does that seem practical?? God was patient, but did He look the other way when His children did wrong??

God's love is merciful but it is not 'excusitory'(if that's a word). I wouldn't truly love my daughter if I let her run across the street at will. I wouldn't love her if I didn't discipline her if there wasn't a consequence to an action that I knew would harm her.

God's love is wrapped in mercy. Our love is wrapped in obedience. This trade-off is relationship. The difference is that His mercy is constant and eternal, my obedience is sporadic, temporal, and void of my own strength. Doctrine is wrapped in obedience and mercy. Tilt the scales too much to one side, and we make God to be on our side!!! Doctrine lacks truth when void of Holy Spirit wisdom and perspective.

History has proven that man takes to the extreme both sides of the truth, which minimizes any truth thereof. Caution an perspective is necessary.

 2009/5/25 0:04
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Quote:
This is what we call the acid test of love -- does a man obey the commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ? It makes no difference how much we talk about our love if we do not obey Christ. It is obedience that counts, not words. Obedience without love is theoretically possible, but love without obedience is, in practice, impossible. It is a satanic substitute for God's plan.





"...My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [i]whether[/i] I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him."


John 7:16-18(KJV)



"I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him."


John 8:26(KJV)




"My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [i]is[/i] a perfect man, [i]and[/i] able also to bridle the whole body. Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body. Behold also the ships, which though [i]they be[/i] so great, and [i]are[/i] driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth. Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! And the tongue [i]is[/i] a fire, a world of iniquity; so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell."


James 3:1-6(KJV)




"And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins. Use hospitality one to another without grudging. As every man hath received the gift, [i]even so[/i] minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If any man speak, [i]let him speak[/i] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [i]let him do it[/i] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion forever and ever. Amen."



1Peter 4:8-11(KJV)



"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themseves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. But we will not boast of things without [i]our[/i] measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you. For we stretch not ourselves beyond [i]our measure[/i], as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in [i]preaching[/i] the gospel of Christ:"


2Corinthians 10:12-14(KJV)



[i]Edited to correct an ommision in verse number[/i]


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/5/25 0:15Profile
wayneman
Member



Joined: 2009/1/24
Posts: 454
Michigan

 Re: A. W. Tozer said.....

waltern,

Another quote from Tozer:

"There is today no lack of Bible teachers to set forth correctly the principles of the doctrines of Christ, but too many of these seem satisfied to teach the fundamentals of the faith year after year, strangely unaware that there is in their ministry no manifest Presence, nor anything unusual in their personal lives. They minister constantly to believers who feel in their breasts a longing which their teaching simply does not satisfy.

"I trust I speak in charity, but the lack in our pulpits is real. Milton's terrible sentence applies to our day as accurately as it did to his: 'The hungry sheep look up, and are not fed.' It is a solemn thing, and no small scandal in the Kingdom, to see God's children starving while actually seated at their Father's table. The truth of Wesley's words is established before our eyes: 'Orthodoxy, or right opinion, is , at best, a very slender part of religion. Though right tempers cannot subsist without right opinions, yet right opinions may subsist without right tempers. There may be a right opinion of God without either love or one right temper toward Him. Satan is proof of this."


_________________
Wayne Kraus

 2009/5/25 1:04Profile





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