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 In Adam we say: "man is fallen". Do we really mean

[color=000000] . . .he has fallen from God's Grace?[/color]

 2009/5/24 12:22









 Re: In Adam we say: "man is fallen". Do we really mean




To Intense:

Intense, you are indeed on a mission. This is a separate posting on the same subject- SIN NATURE. The creature, that is us, fallen man, cannot fathom his sinfulness. He has been deceived by the lies of satan, who told Eve, "4. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: [b] 5. For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."[/b] All of the children of Adam (that is all of mankind) believe what the serpent told Eve, that we shall be like god. But, we are not. We are the creation, made out of the clay from the earth. We are the creature, that needs a Savior, we are not the Creator.

The Bible mentions mans sin continously. It starts in the Book of Genesis, and continues througout the Old Testament, and it continues into the New Testament.

God is trying to get the creatures attention, and to do that He brings up the subject of man's innate sin and how to cover it with the blood of sinless sacrifices in the Old Testament. In the New Testament, He brings up sin again to show us that Christ, who knew no sin, became sin for us, so that all those that believe in Him and the Work that He did, can be saved from their sin, and have a "new nature"(not their old sin nature, inherited from Adam), the nature of The Creator, the nature of the Resurrected Jesus Christ.

Sin is found 358 times in the Old Testament and 118 times in the New Testament.

In the Old Testament, the word sin appears 358 times.

194 of those times the Hebrew word chatta’ah occurs, in description of sin:

Strong's Number: 2403
Transliterated: chatta'ah
Phonetic: khat-taw-aw'

Text: or chattacth {khat-tawth'}; from 2398; an offence (sometimes habitual sinfulness), and its penalty, occasion, sacrifice, or expiation; also (concretely) an offender: -punishment (of sin), purifying(-fication for sin), sin(-ner, offering).


8 of those times the word chat’ah occurs, in description of sin
Strong's Number: 2401
Transliterated: chata'ah
Phonetic: khat-aw-aw'
Text: feminine of 2399; an offence, or a sacrifice for it: -sin (offering).

74 times the word chata’ appears, and has the meaning of missing the mark

Strong's Number: 2398
Transliterated: chata'
Phonetic: khaw-taw'

Text: a primitive root; properly, to miss; hence (figuratively and generally) to sin; by inference, to forfeit, lack, expiate, repent, (causatively) lead astray, condemn: -bear the blame, cleanse, commit [sin], by fault, harm he hath done, loss, miss, (make) offend(-er), offer for sin, purge, purify (self), make reconciliation, (cause, make) sin(-ful, -ness), trespass.


22 times the word chet’ appears, and has the meaning of a fault, a crime, or it’s penalty.

Strong's Number: 2399
Transliterated: chet'
Phonetic: khate

Text: from 2398; a crime or its penalty: -fault, X grievously, offence, (punishment of) sin.

8 times the word ‘ashmah appears, and has the meaning of the presentation of a sin offering. All Jews were required to offer sin offerings and trespass offerings.

Strong's Number: 819
Transliterated: 'ashmah
Phonetic: ash-maw'

Text: feminine of 817; guiltiness, a fault, the presentation of a sin-offering: --offend, sin, (cause of) trespass(-ing, offering).

3 times the word ‘asham appears, and has the meaning of the presentation of a sin offering or a trespass offering.

Strong's Number: 817
Transliterated: 'asham
Phonetic: aw-shawm'

Text: from 816; guilt; by implication, a fault; also a sin-offering: --guiltiness, (offering for) sin, trespass (offering).

1 time the word shagah appears, and has the meaning of to transgress, to go astray, to sin through ignorance.

Strong's Number: 7686
Transliterated: shagah
Phonetic: shaw-gaw'

Text: a primitive root; to stray (causatively, mislead), usually (figuratively) to mistake, especially (morally) to transgress; by extension (through the idea of intoxication) to reel, (figuratively) be enraptured: --(cause to) go astray, deceive, err, be ravished, sin through ignorance, (let, make to) wander.

1 time the word pescha appears, and has the meaning of rebellion, sin, transgression, trespass
Strong's Number: 6588
Transliterated: pesha`
Phonetic: peh'-shah

Text: from 6586; a revolt (national, moral or religious): --rebellion, sin, transgression, trespass.

1 time the word ‘avon appears, and has the meaning of fault, iniquity, mischief, punishment of iniquity, sin.
Strong's Number: 5771
Transliterated: `avon
Phonetic: aw-vone'

Text: or oavown (2 Kings 7:9; Psalm 51:5 [7]) {aw-vone'}; from 5753; perversity, i.e. (moral) evil: --fault, iniquity, mischeif, punishment (of iniquity), sin.

1 time the word chattaya’ appears and has the meaning of a sin offering
Strong's Number: 2409
Transliterated: chattaya'
Phonetic: khat-taw-yaw'

Text: (Aramaic) from the same as 2408; an expiation: -sin offering.



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[b]In the New Teatament, the word sin appears 118 times[/b]


Each time the word sin is found in the New Testament, only 3 Greek words are used:

13 times 264
1 time 361 –go and sin no more
90 times 266


Strong's Number: 264
Transliterated: hamartano
Phonetic: ham-ar-tan'-o
Text: perhaps from 1 (as a negative particle) and the base of 3313; properly, to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), i.e. (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin: --for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.

Strong's Number: 361 –Found only once—John 8:11
Transliterated: anamartetos
Phonetic: an-am-ar'-tay-tos
Text: from 1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of 264; sinless: --that is without sin.

Strong's Number: 266
Transliterated: hamartia
Phonetic: ham-ar-tee'-ah

Text: from 264; a sin (properly abstract): -- offence, sin(-ful).


Also, in the New Testament listing in Strongs Concordance, where the Greek words appear for sin in the New Testament, we find one Hebrew word that appears several times in the Old Testament:

Strong's Number: 5512
Transliterated: Ciyn
Phonetic: seen

Text: of uncertain derivation; Sin the name of an Egyptian town and (probably) desert adjoining: --Sin.

It can be found in the following verses:
Ezekiel 30:15-16
Exodus 16:1; 17:1
Numbers 33:11-12


Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

Intense wrote:
[color=000000] . . .he has fallen from God's Grace?[/color]

 2009/5/24 13:21









 Re:

Any cursory reading of the Bible will reveal God's grace from cover to cover with "fallen" man living in the midst of it. :-)

 2009/5/24 14:07









 Re: SIN NATURE


Intense, that is your problem. A "cursory" reading of the Bible has sent many men and women straight to hell!

These are several teachings by Paul Washer that will spell this out for you:

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14cb7U0Tdf4]Why Would the Father Send the Son? Not Because You Are Good![/url]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14cb7U0Tdf4]Why Would the Father Send the Son? Not Because You Are Good![/url]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMysey4kVgM&feature=PlayList&p=C0CF76E5B3A5CDF4&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=24]The Real Meaning of the Cross[/url]

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

Intense wrote:
Any cursory reading of the Bible will reveal God's grace from cover to cover with "fallen" man living in the midst of it. :-)



[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty5uHLqdglY&feature=channel]We know not the Gospel[/url]


 2009/5/24 14:20









 Re:

Quote:

waltern wrote:


Intense, that is your problem. A "cursory" reading of the Bible has sent many men and women straight to hell!

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

Intense wrote:
Any cursory reading of the Bible will reveal God's grace from cover to cover with "fallen" man living in the midst of it. :-)




Interesting. Is what I wrote, not true?

 2009/5/24 14:24









 Re:



Intense wrote:

Interesting. Is what I wrote, not true?

Walters response:

In your "cursory" reading of the Bible you have missed any understanding of Propitiation. Christ BECAME the Mercy Seat for all those that believe in/on Him. Only those with this belief in Christ will have their sins erased, and escape hell.

I suggest you watch several videos by
Paul Washer that will perhaps help you understand what the Church has taught since the beginning:


[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDFpiLOX6Bs&feature=PlayList&p=C0CF76E5B3A5CDF4&index=27]The Total Depravity of Man[/url]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMysey4kVgM&feature=PlayList&p=C0CF76E5B3A5CDF4&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=24]The Real Meaning of the Cross[/url]

Eastons Bible Dictionary
Topics: Propitia'tion

Text: that by which God is rendered propitious, i.e., by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner. The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; it only renders it consistent for him to execise his love towards sinners. In Rom. 3:25 and Heb. 9:5 ( "mercy-seat") the Greek word hilasterion is used. It is the word employed by the LXX. translators in Ex. 25:17 and elsewhere as the equivalent for the Hebrew kapporeth, which means "covering," and is used of the lid of the ark of the covenant (Ex. 25:21; 30:6).

[b]This Greek word (hilasterion) came to denote not only the mercy-seat or lid of the ark, but also propitation or reconciliation by blood. On the great day of atonement the high priest carried the blood of the sacrifice he offered for all the people within the veil and sprinkled with it the "mercy-seat," and so made propitiation.[/b]

In 1 John 2:2; 4:10, Christ is called the "propitiation for our sins." Here a different Greek word is used (hilasmos). Christ is "the propitiation," because by his becoming our substitute and assuming our obligations he expiated our guilt, covered it, by the vicarious punishment which he endured. (Comp. Heb. 2:17, where the expression "make reconciliation" of the A.V. is more correctly in the R.V. "make propitiation.")


Sincerely,

Walter

No

Quote:

Intense wrote:
Quote:

waltern wrote:


Intense, that is your problem. A "cursory" reading of the Bible has sent many men and women straight to hell!

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

Intense wrote:
Any cursory reading of the Bible will reveal God's grace from cover to cover with "fallen" man living in the midst of it. :-)




Interesting. Is what I wrote, not true?



 2009/5/24 14:58









 Re: In Adam we say: "man is fallen". Do we really mean

Dear Intense,

I hope you might take the trouble to listen to the address by Paul Washer, the link to which I posted in the other thread. It would give you a different view of the questions you are asking, even if you still feel the need to ask them afterwards.

Did Adam need God's grace to walk in fellowship with Him, before he disobeyed God?

I believe you will find the first mention of God's grace is in the context of a man who went looking for it, and found it.

The man understood that he was living in an era when [i]only[/i] by God's grace, could he commune with God, and, he understood how that gulf between God and man had arisen.

 2009/5/24 15:01
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2737
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: In Adam we say: "man is fallen". Do we really mean

Ormly wrote

Quote:
. . .he has fallen from God's Grace?



Dear Ormly,

I just wanted you to revisit something that BeenBlake wrote to you a few years back on this forum in a thread discussing the matter of depravity...



[i]I am sorry my friend, but I see that we do not agree. I will leave you with this one challenging thought.

Please do not take offense to this. The philosophy that you are speaking of sounds much like Buddhism. They also believe that the self is the key problem. They believe our "self" is our biggest enemy.

But this isn't the case with Christ. For the golden rule says, "Love your neighbor as yourself." If I deny myself, then how can I love my neighbor as myself?

What you don't see is that the problem is not with the self, but the self without God as Lord.

God created humans for Him. We were created for God. However, we did not want to serve God. Our sin is that we sought another Lord to replace God. Indeed, one of these Lords is our "self." However, there are many false Lords, including the Devil, that is our problem. The "self" is only one of these.

Adam and Eve did not listen to God. As such, they did not obey or heed His authority. They rebelled. In doing so, they left the Kingdom of God (the rule of God) and were from then on ruled by other things. Humanity was separated from the dominion of the creator.

One of the problems that comes with the sinful nature is that we are deceived into thinking we can rule ourselves. As such, we are deluded to believe we can have self-control. People who want such "self-control" try to be righteous by controlling themselves. As such, they are Lord over themselves...

The teaching you are proposing sounds much like this. It suggests that we should have complete control over ourselves by denying ourselves. As such, we become Lord or master of our "self."[/i]


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2009/5/24 18:31Profile





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