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Jimotheus
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Joined: 2005/7/8
Posts: 53


 Re:

Greetings:

The Holy Bible does teach that God is sovereign. I do not believe that I have read where anyone posted any different. However, the truth that God is sovereign does not make Paul Washer's Calvinism true. It would seem that some who believe in Calvinism read into many text such a conclusion of particular election, and particular reprobation. This is unfortunate. Calvinism (not the faith that was once delivered to the saints) is founded on 5 pillars, or "T.U.L.I.P" Theology; if only one of these pillars fall, the whole facade of Calvinism falls to the ground.

As I have stated on another thread: I know that Bro. Paul Washer is well loved, and celebrated on this website. I do not have a personal axe to grind with Mr. Washer or any of his followers. My revulsion is with the Calvinistic faith Mr. Washer clearly propagates.

Once again, if you keep in mind and heart as you read the scriptures that the only one who is worthy of unconditional election is Christ Jesus alone. This is why he and only he is the elect of God. Our election as individual persons is only contigent on our organic relationship to Christ Jesus who is the executor of election. As one Brother puts it, "Christ is the Elect, and the Electing God."



[u][i][b][color=CC0000]"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; MINE ELECT, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles."[/color][/b][/i][/u]Isaiah 42:1.

There may be "argumemts on both sides" as one brother indicated, but logically speaking only one can be true while the other is false. We will hold to the one and reject the other. I chose the Bible over Calvinistic fatalism. I encourage everyone who reads this to do the same.

 2009/6/10 18:30Profile









 Re:

by Jimotheus

Quote:
This is classic Calvinistic fatalism. The only man in all of time that has been particularly elected from all eternity past is none other than the man Jesus Christ.



Actually the scriptures disagree with you.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because [b]God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation[/b] through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 [b]Whereunto he called you by our gospel,[/b] to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul tells these believers THEY where chosen by God from the beginning to salvation. Because they were chosen they were called.

When is the beginning?

Before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 2009/6/10 19:08









 Re: We Know Not The Gospel Of Jesus Christ by Paul Washer (Video)


Quote:

sscott wrote:
by Jimotheus

Quote:
This is classic Calvinistic fatalism. The only man in all of time that has been particularly elected from all eternity past is none other than the man Jesus Christ.



Actually the scriptures disagree with you.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because [b]God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation[/b] through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 [b]Whereunto he called you by our gospel,[/b] to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul tells these believers THEY where chosen by God from the beginning to salvation. Because they were chosen they were called.

When is the beginning?

Before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

If He is not more eternal than we are, how come there are all those people in the world who reject Him?

Surely the Son was from eternity in the Godhead, and it is only as we receive of Him through the Holy Spirit, that we ourselves can have any sense of eternity - whether before we consciously put our trust in Him, or after? It is only [i][b]after[/i][/b] that [u]we[/u] can join Paul in the claim of Eph 1:4. Until then, salvation is lost to our consciousness.

This is one of the proofs of new birth - the consciousness of God as [i]my[/i] Father.

 2009/6/11 3:26
jpspeer
Member



Joined: 2008/10/21
Posts: 15


 Re: Paul Washer's Fatalism

I agree with Jimotheus on this one.

Having listened to MANY of Paul Washer's sermons and teachings, I have found much to rally around as revival-seeking brethren. "10 Indictments" is one of the greatest sermons I've heard anywhere by anyone.

However, even Mr. Washer seems to be constantly morphing in his belief in the so-called doctrines of grace. In one sermon he emphatically declares himself a Calvinist. In "10 Indictments" he stumbles as he describes himself as a "5-point Spurgeonist." I certainly wouldn't describe Mr. Washer as dogmatic on all of Calvin's teachings. He even preaches that Calvinism vs. Arminianism isn't the issue-- redemption is the issue. I'm no Calvinist and am certainly no Arminian. I am, however, redeemed, Praise God forever!

After immersing myself in the preaching of Paul Washer for several weeks, I had to turn him off. (I will probably go back and listen to his other sermons sometime and will probably go back and re-listen to ones I've heard already at some point in the future because I think that he often starts with the correct premise of many of the problems in modern Christianity.) I couldn't put my finger on what it was that bothered me so much until I read this thread. As I listened to his sermons, where I was compelled by scripture to agree with him on the nature of the issues we face, I so often was repulsed by the fatalism in his solutions and the lack of hope offered.

For instance, I definitely agree with him that the easy-believism movement is wrong and the little prayer rituals they propagate are damning heresies. But Mr. Washer often sought simply to replace easy believism with what can only be described as "hard believism." It is just as ritualistic as its counterpart, but it is much more confusing and convoluted due to the shear volume of its extra-biblical foundations.

There were some in the Bible such as Paul who had profound salvation "experiences" and others such as the Philippian jailer who simply asked "what must I do to be saved?" According to the Bible, both men were equally made sons of God. However, neither of these men had to agonize for hours until they felt saved (Mr. Washer's apparent ideal of true salvation). They simply believed God, repented, and entered into the fellowship of obedience to their Creator.

Anyway, I hope that Mr. Washer continues to re-evaluate the so-called doctrines of grace and that many souls will be saved or revived as a result of his obedience to preach the gospel.

 2009/6/11 10:19Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re: We Know Not The Gospel Of Jesus Christ by Paul Washer (Video)

All reading this thread should be made aware that much of what is being labeled as Calvinism in this thread is a distortion of the true historic teachings of the doctrines of grace.

The difference is in the nature and purpose of God and man.

Calvinism is not fatalistic. Fatalism teaches that God does all things arbitrarily and without purpose or without regard to those he controls (just like the Greek Fates). There is no compassion or love in His motive, just arbitrary rule.

The doctrines of grace teach that God is personal and that he rules and governs all things for his glory out of love for his elect. He works all things for their good. God is one who loves, and loves sovereignly. So, as you can see, this is not fate.

Regarding man's responsibility, Fatalism would teach that “what will be will be” therefore you can do whatever you want to do, since it's all determined anyway. Fatalism will always be antinomian.

The doctrines of grace (i.e the Gospel) teach that man is responsible for his actions. He must obey God's law. He must respond to the Word. He must believe on Christ to be saved. After he is regenerate and has faith, he must produce fruit. God requires this of man.

Scripture (i.e. Doctrines of Grace) teaches both the absolute sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man.

Please study this subject for your self and do not rely on the opinions being put forth on this thread.


_________________
TJ

 2009/6/11 11:06Profile
jpspeer
Member



Joined: 2008/10/21
Posts: 15


 Re: tjservant

If Calvinism is no way arbitrary, then what is the determining factor in who God has elected?

Just an honest question.

 2009/6/11 11:24Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:

jpspeer wrote:
If Calvinism is no way arbitrary, then what is the determining factor in who God has elected?

Just an honest question.



Ephesians 1:4-5, 11

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Many people feel that predestination portrays God as an arbitrary despot who uses the stairway method of saving people. He writes down everybody's name on separate sheets of paper and throws the papers down the steps. Those that land on the top steps are saved, those that land on the bottom are not.

Now let me ask you, is this characterization true to everything we know about God from the Scriptures? Biblical predestination flows from the character of God, and is rooted in his nature and attributes-it cannot be separated. If therefore we can prove that God is not arbitrary in nature, we can prove that predestination is not arbitrary and does not reveal anything arbitrary about God.

Is there anything in our current passage which indicates that God is arbitrary? Not at all. The entire tenor of the passage is filled with language about God's purpose, and his good pleasure. It is true that God does what he wants, but there is nothing in the passage which indicates that what God wants is not good. Indeed, when it speaks of God's pleasure, the word in the original strongly implies the fact that this pleasure is good. We see that God has a plan and a purpose which include bringing the entire universe under the headship of Jesus Christ. The goodness of God's pleasure, the fact that he has a plan from the very beginning, a plan to which he relates all his individual acts, is the very opposite of arbitrary decisions. - Barry Hofstetter [url=http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html?mainframe=/calvinism/bh_predestination.html]Source[/url]

The attributes of God show in themselves that He is not arbitrary...even if we do not have all the reasons or understanding.

I wish not to debate Calvinism.

God bless you. :-)


_________________
TJ

 2009/6/11 11:42Profile
jpspeer
Member



Joined: 2008/10/21
Posts: 15


 Re:

I wish not to debate Calvinism either.

When I ask how God's choice is made so that I might understand how God isn't arbitrary according to the so-called doctrines of grace, I am looking for an actual answer.

The quote you replied with boils down to a response of "He isn't arbitrary."

That is hardly an answer to the question I asked.

 2009/6/11 12:05Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:

jpspeer wrote:
I wish not to debate Calvinism either.

When I ask how God's choice is made so that I might understand how God isn't arbitrary according to the so-called doctrines of grace, I am looking for an actual answer.

The quote you replied with boils down to a response of "He isn't arbitrary."

That is hardly an answer to the question I asked.



I replied with scripture. I included a quote. I believe it answers it perfectly. God has a will and can do whatever He wants. The scripture says, "His pleasure." Can God not simply make choices based on His will and Pleasure? This does not make Him arbitrary nor does it mean that those that hold belief in the doctrines of grace make Him to be arbitrary just because He has not included anymore details.

There are plenty of threads here on SI that have went through this before. I am sure there are others that can better answer your question. Please forgive my inadequacies.

This thread was not intended to be a launching pad for Calvinism theology discussions. I feel I should bow out at this point.

May God bless you all.


_________________
TJ

 2009/6/11 12:23Profile
bible1985
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

People think their our 2 definitions of the word elect, one believes if they have become a christian they our elect but by their own choosing, the other believes God chose them to be the elect.I lean more to the second one and that is because that is what the Bible more teaches of like i said in romans 9, john ch. 6 and 0, ephesians ch. and acts 18 our some to show Gods sovereignty in salvation. One things armians don't understand is that God must awaken the dead soul for them to seek after him. Go up to anyone on the streets or unbelievers in your family and you tell me our they automatically seeking God, as my family they our dead to it and want no part of it, is it because they choose him not or because God has not opened their eyes or is drawing them, you tell me but the Bible supports this. Jesus said the only way anyone could come to him is if the father drew them, but we seem to forget that.Paul washers sermons have helped me more than any other preacher i have listened to before, he believes what he believes because scripture teaches it and Gods has taught him because he sought God probably more than most. I really don't like the fact that some can point the finger at someone saying their teachings our fatalistic when they can't prove their teachings wrong because want to know why because that person the calvinist has many scriptures to prove their point, if their not valid or not completely they still have verses to show some evidence. This is not about calvinism i guess, but what the Bible literally teaches, what makes your belief system right and washers wrong, prove to me that john ch. 6 and 0 and romans 9 and ephesians our saying something different. Their our more too, but i am trying to say that no side has full evidence to prove their point, but washer surely understands the depravity of man which scripture clearlly teaches, amen to this sermon.

 2009/6/11 14:07Profile





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