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tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 We Know Not The Gospel Of Jesus Christ by Paul Washer (Video)

Excellent 10 minute video of Paul Washer

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty5uHLqdglY&feature=channel]We Know Not The Gospel Of Jesus Christ[/url]

**edit**

All reading this thread should be made aware that much of what is being labeled as Calvinism in this thread is a distortion of the true historic teachings of the doctrines of grace.

The difference is in the nature and purpose of God and man.

Calvinism is not fatalistic. Fatalism teaches that God does all things arbitrarily and without purpose or without regard to those he controls (just like the Greek Fates). There is no compassion or love in His motive, just arbitrary rule.

The doctrines of grace teach that God is personal and that he rules and governs all things for his glory out of love for his elect. He works all things for their good. God is one who loves, and loves sovereignly. So, as you can see, this is not fate.

Regarding man's responsibility, Fatalism would teach that “what will be will be” therefore you can do whatever you want to do, since it's all determined anyway. Fatalism will always be antinomian.

The doctrines of grace (i.e the Gospel) teach that man is responsible for his actions. He must obey God's law. He must respond to the Word. He must believe on Christ to be saved. After he is regenerate and has faith, he must produce fruit. God requires this of man.

Scripture (i.e. Doctrines of Grace) teaches both the absolute sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man.

Please study this subject for your self and do not rely on the opinions being put forth on this thread.


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TJ

 2009/5/22 10:32Profile
bible4life
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Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1559
Locport, Illinois

 Re: We Know Not The Gospel Of Jesus Christ by Paul Washer (Video)

great video, that place seemed so silent and not expecting of that. The whole sermon is great, i actually would want to know how they reacted to that sermon.You know their is a testimony of his wife up now, you should check it out.


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John Beechy

 2009/5/24 1:54Profile
Jimotheus
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Joined: 2005/7/8
Posts: 53


 Re: We Know Not The Gospel Of Jesus Christ by Paul Washer (Video)

Grace, peace, and love be multiplied:
Greetings to all. Once again I am disappointed to hear a good start to a sermon that only ended up being more Calvinistic fatalism. Yes, Mr. Washer is correct that there is an obvious need to re-educate the Church concerning the evangelizing of the true gospel, and that many a modern techniques of leading people to decision making is wrong. The preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ isn't about asking people if they want to go to heaven. The gospel isn't about "four spiritual laws." This is a true observation that is made clear by the Holy Scriptures. However, the calvinistic theology that is evident in Mr. Washer's presentation is also unbiblical and therefore not the gospel of Jesus Christ either. No man or woman is passive in the call to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as suggested in his sermon. Nor has God elected particular men to salvation to the exclusion of the others. If one studies the Holy Scriptures you will not find any prophet, or apostle of the New Testament (Not even Christ himself) asking the question that Mr. Washer says is the real question namely, "has God so worked in your heart to such a degree that the sin you once loved you now hate?" Mr. Washer also offers a "technique" that isn't found in the Bible. God himself doesn't ask any sinner this question nor does the Holy Ghost approach any sinner in this manner. The bible says that when the Holy Ghost is come he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. This must take place to awaken men and women to the reality that they are sinners, and what that means in the sight of a holy God. The sinner must be made aware by the Holy Ghost as the gospel is being preached the criminality of his whole position before God. But there is no regeneration until the sinner is convinced, and submits in obedience to the call of the gospel namely, repentance toward God, and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. God does not seize men arbitrarily as so suggested by Mr. Washer as if men and women are simply passive in the process. The preaching of the gospel is reason; it cause men to think about their lostness before God; to consider how offensive to God they are and how deserving of Hell they really are. Yea, let God be true and every man and woman a liar. I repeat, God does not seize any man or women arbitrarily for salvaiton; he reasons with them in the conviction of their sins. In Isaiah 1:18-20, it reads, "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red as crimson, the shall be as wool.(19)If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:(20)But if you refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." Notice what God Almighty says in verses 19 "If ye be willing and obedient. . ." and again in verse 20, "If ye refuse and rebel. . ." This reveals the responsibility that men and women have in being "willing", or, "refusing" to repent and be saved. Notice also that Jehovah was willing, but if was obvious that Israel was not willing. There are many other scriptures that can be cited to demonstrate that God commands men everywhere to repent, but does not seize any particular person before they are willing and obedient concerning the Lord Jesus Christ.

 2009/5/24 7:53Profile
tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
You know their is a testimony of his wife up now, you should check it out.



Thanks, I have.

I think that it (Charo’s testimony/experience) has perhaps provided some of the fuel for Paul Washer's particular burden and message.


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TJ

 2009/5/24 13:03Profile
bible4life
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Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1559
Locport, Illinois

 Re:

You cannot take a few verses and say that is how it is. Their our scriptures that say like in acts 18 those were ordained believed. Jesus also speaks in the gospels that if he opened their eyes and their ears that they would believe that they may be saved, so God must open their eyes. Also Jesus said no one can come to me unless the father draws them showing th inability of man or their depravity. Your expecting a dead man to respond to the gospel, they must be given a new spirit to do so to come back to the father in repentance. Jesus said all that the father has given me will come to me, what you don't understand is their is a mystery to salvation and who gets saved and that is for God alone to know. Read romans ch. 9 it squashes the argument that the Bible doesn't mention God choosing at all.You can say what your saying but the calvinists argument is as valid as yours because scripture points out both and even taking into context it still does the same.


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John Beechy

 2009/5/24 21:59Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7464
Mississippi

 Re:

timotheous,

Seems to me you need to go back and listen again to Washer's sermon. Washer is emphatic that repentance is the evidence of salvation in the life of a person being 'saved'.

Quote:
I repeat, God does not seize any man or women arbitrarily for salvation;

I never heard Washer say his, nor imply it. If he did at what point in the sermon did you understand him to say it? Listen to it again tell me were it is so I can listen to it again...

Thank-you!
ginnyrose



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Sandra Miller

 2009/5/24 22:41Profile
Jimotheus
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Joined: 2005/7/8
Posts: 53


 Re:

Greetings ginnyrose:

Thank you for your reply. I do not believe I need to go back and listen to Mr. Washer's video. I heard him well enough and I have also listened to other sermon's that he has preached.

"Washer is emphatic that repentance is the evidence of salvation in the life of a person being 'saved'."

I never said that Mr. Washer does not believe in repentance, or that he doesn't preach repentance. Remember the holy scriptures say first repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Act 20:21. Also chapter 26:20. The apostle warns both Jew and Gentile that they should repent, and turn to God and do works meet(or as evidence of)true repentance. Notice the divine order according to the Holy Bible. The born again experience does not precede repentance, but the convicting power of the Holy Ghost does. The convicting power of the Holy Ghost convinces, and convicts us of our sins. Only then we are made aware of our criminality, and guilt before God; only then can true repentance toward God, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ be realized. The born again experience does not precede faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. According to the Bible #1.Repentance #2.Faith #3.Salvation.


[i]"I repeat, God does not seize any man or women arbitrarily for salvation; "[/i]My point in this statement is that men, and women are not passive in the process, that is, God does not seize individuals with some kind of "irresistable grace" He will command men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel. They are free to submit themselves to God, or resist the truth of the gospel and remain lost.

Unfortunately, Mr. Washer believes in "particular redeemption" (the title to one of his sermons), that is, limited atonement, and the election of particular persons. This is classic Calvinistic fatalism. The only man in all of time that has been particularly elected from all eternity past is none other than the man Jesus Christ. Once it is understood that the election is Christocentric and not particular persons; then and only then can we understand that our election and eternal life is IN THE SON not in particular persons as the Calvinist believe.

 2009/6/7 1:09Profile









 Re: We Know Not The Gospel Of Jesus Christ by Paul Washer (Video)

Jimotheus said
quote]Once it is understood that the election is Christocentric and not particular persons; then and only then can we understand that our election and eternal life is IN THE SON not in particular persons


Amen.

One could express this truth in this way also, that I become 'elected' only as the 'Elect' One is [u]in me[/u] - John 14:1, John 17:23, 2 Cor 3:17.

Your observations about the order in which a person is released into faith (or alternatively, chooses unbelief) through the hearing of the word (Rom 10:17) was gently expressed, brother.

 2009/6/7 1:56
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
This is classic Calvinistic fatalism.



I would like to add to the thread that I do not believe Paul Washer is a fatalist.

Fatalism accepts what the Bible says about God's sovereignty without acknowledging the verses about human responsibility and free agency. Much of the rest of contemporary Christianity does just the opposite -- swallowing free agency without facing up to the sovereignty verses. Both approaches leave one with a truncated Bible and a distorted image of God. Paul Washer does not deny the responsibility of the believer.

I will not argue the matter, but would like to make it clear that having heard several of Paul Washer’s sermons…he is definitely not fatalistic. Many folks attempt to lump all those holding to the doctrines of grace into the same “hyper”- Calvinistic pile. The fact of the matter is that there are many people who hold to a balanced and historically consistent view that is anything but fatalistic.


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TJ

 2009/6/7 6:30Profile
bible1985
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

I think their our arguments for both sides so to think that Bible doesn't teach gods sovereignty in salvation without any mention that i would advise you study a little more because it actually does. Ephesians ch. 1, john ch. 6 and ch. 10, romans 8 and 9, Acts ch. 18 our for starts. We also forget God chose israel out of all the nations.

 2009/6/7 7:43Profile





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