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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : WARNING: "The Lie"

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 WARNING: "The Lie"

[b]I'm not an alarmist and would never put forth a title such as this one lightly.

2 Thess 2 speaks of "the lie" and prior to that warning in vs 11 - from verses 1-9, Paul speaks of the antiChrist.

There is mixed eschatology out there right now that will lead "the most" astray and as I just now was ready to drift off to sleep with the radio on, I heard a 5 minute daily broadcast that is or has been reputable for many years.

I will quote it here but need to set the stage first.

We read in The Revelation that after the 6th Vial and with the last or 7th vial 'After' the antiChrist had already been ruling for 3 1/2 years [i]Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. [/i]

This happens WITH the Return / Coming / 2nd Advent of The LORD and this battle is not the one that we, as a world, are waiting to possibly come about with Iran and with the possibility that it could turn into WW3 if Russia, etc get involved, which many believe with good reason that they may.

There are many New Age prophets and globalists and especially Masons following one of their heads, Albert Pike and his vision for WW3 and many others of various beliefs that are planning to bring in "their christ" with a WW3. Even with Maitreya and many others saying such things, but now it is coming from Christians that people respect and the quoting of one of the most popular Rabbis of his time - one who many thought was the messiah.

Here is the quote of what I heard tonight on the radio.

Please understand how dangerous this belief could be, if Christians or Jews believe that whomever brings this war with Iran, etc to an end is The Messiah.[/b]



Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. Revelation 16:16

A clash in the Persian Gulf will shake the world, and "then the Messiah will come and proclaim that salvation is at hand." Those words sound like something you might hear spoken by a rather far out preacher at a prophecy conference, or a pitch for someone’s latest book. But that statement, which contends that a clash in the Persian Gulf will culminate in the coming of the Messiah, came from the lips of a respected Jewish Rabbi in the early 1990s. Libavich Rabbi Menachem Schneerson, an influential figure among Israel’s ultra-orthodox Jews, made that statement, expressing his belief that conflict cannot continue without the direct intervention of the Almighty Himself. How much more so does that scenario look realistic today?

It’s impossible to pick up a newspaper or turn on the TV without someone focusing on Israel and her enemies and how the conflict is affecting life today. Almost daily someone asks, "Are we moving towards Armageddon?" "Is this the beginning of World War III?" "Will there be an anti Christ who will appear and untangle the mess the nations of the world find themselves in?”

First, let's begin with the word Armageddon, and once we've established an understanding of what it is, see if the events that are confronting us right now could presage that great event. Though the word Armageddon is often used in the secular world, it’s a term of biblical significance and has been found in the context of biblical history for centuries. First, note that Armageddon refers to a literal geographic place, a triangular valley in Israel.

Actually, the word Armageddon comes from two Hebrew words, har and meggido, and means "Hill of Meggido," and it refers to that narrow strip of land in the valley of Esdraelon, east of Haifa and North of Jerusalem. It's strategically important because three continents touch this piece of terra firma Europe, Africa, and Asia, and whenever an army moves from one to the other, the easiest, most direct route, is through the valley of Meggido.

The valley of Meggido is a natural battlefield and possibly more blood has been spilled in warfare in this valley than in any other battlefield in the world—so say military historians. Gideon fought the Midianites here (Judges 6). Barak met the army of the Sisera here (Judges 4:15). King Josiah was slain in battle here (2 Kings 23), and Saul met his death at the hands of the enemy right here, as well (1 Samuel 31).

Napoleon stood on the brow of Meggido and cried, "... all the armies of the world could maneuver for battle here."

Second, Armageddon represents the final, great conflict in which the nations of the world are gathered in fierce battle. It is undoubtedly the most hideous and terrible battle ever fought, and at the crest of that battle, Jesus Christ Himself returns. The Book of Revelation describes this battle where Christ Himself says, "’Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.’ Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon" (Revelation 16:15-16).

The question that confronts the real issue is, "Could it be possible that the conflict in the Middle East may lead to this confrontation?" No matter what your opinion, there is one thing for certain. The key players Israel, Iraq, Iran, Russia, and Germany are all represented in one side or the other of every conflict in the Middle East, and these nations are specifically named in Ezekiel 38 as participants in that final conflict.[/i]

[b]The above came from Guidelines International Ministries and taken at face value - could confuse many and deceive many.

There is going to be a Part Two to this tomorrow.

I pray he clears this up - but what of those who don't catch that program tomorrow and what if he doesn't clear this up tomorrow?

Please know that the enemy knows the Bible better than most Saints and will bring in a 'counterfeit' to every future Prophetic Word in the Bible.

This is one - so far, as it stands on it's own.

What we will see if this war does come to be is in Daniel chpt 8 and not Revelation 16.

I pray GOD protect His Own from these type "words" because I believe it is just the beginning of confusion that will be thrown out there for those who are not familiar with the Word well enough to be tangled up in their thinking with.

Pray for the Jewish people to also not be deceived by any such words.

Pray one for another also.
Thank you![/b]

 2009/5/20 1:34

 Re: Reply to Article above -

[b][i]Mat 24:4-8 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:23-27 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Behold, I have told you before.
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [/b][/i]


There was/is no successor to "the Rebbe", [url=]Menachem Mendel Schneerson[/url] [who was quoted in the Article above], leader of the Lubavitch movement. The Messiah question, combined with a 'Chabad' tradition that the Messiah would come after the seventh Rebbe, probably complicated his succession. Chabad Hasidim believe that there is no successor to Rabbi Schneerson, and that he is in that sense still their leader. Many believe that he will return as the Messiah; this view has led to controversy with other Orthodox groups. Many, quoting Talmudic passages such as Ya'akov avinu lo meis ("our forefather Jacob did not die") (Talmud Ta'anit 5b) insist he has not died at all, and refuse to put the typical honorifics for the dead (e.g. zt"l or Zecher Tzaddik Livrocho, "may the memory of the righteous be for a blessing") after his name.

Emphasis added -

[b]What is the Jewish Belief About Moshiach?[/b]

By Nissan Dovid Dubov / the rebbe. org

Rabbi Nissan D. Dubov is director of Chabad Lubavitch in Wimbledon, UK.

What is the 'End of Days'?

The term “End of Days” is taken from Numbers 24:4. This has always been taken as a reference to the messianic era. Here we shall explore – albeit briefly – the Jewish belief in the coming of Mashiach.

What does the word Mashiach mean?

Mashiach is the Hebrew word for Messiah. The word Messiah in English means a saviour or a “hoped-for deliverer”. The word Mashiach in Hebrew actually means “anointed”. [b]In Biblical Hebrew the title Mashiach was bestowed on[u] somebody who had attained a position of nobility and greatness.[/u] For example, the High Priest is referred to as the Kohen Hamashiach.

In Talmudic literature the title Mashiach, or Melech Hamashiach, [u](the King Messiah) is reserved for the Jewish leader[/u] who will redeem Israel in the End of Days.

What is the belief in Mashiach?

One of the principles of Jewish faith enumerated by Maimonides is that [u]one day there will 'arise' a dynamic Jewish leader, a direct descendant of the Davidic dynasty, who will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem and gather Jews from all over the world and bring them back to the Land of Israel.[/u]

All the nations of the world will recognise Mashiach to be [u]a world leader[/u] and will accept his dominion. In the messianic era there will be world peace, no more wars nor famine and, in general, a high standard of living.

All mankind will worship one G–d and live a more spiritual and moral way of life. The Jewish nation will be preoccupied with learning Torah and fathoming its secrets.

The coming of Mashiach will complete G–d’s purpose in creation: for man to make an abode for G–d in the lower worlds; to reveal the inherent spirituality in the material world.[/b]

Is this not a utopian dream?

No! Judaism fervently believes that,[u] with the correct leadership, humankind can and will change. The leadership quality of Mashiach means that through his dynamic personality and example, coupled with manifest humility, he will inspire all people to strive for good. He will transform a seemingly utopian dream into a reality. He will be recognised as a man of G–d with greater leadership qualities than even Moshe.[/u]

In today’s society many people are repulsed by the breakdown of ethical and moral standards. Life is cheap, crime is rampant, drug and alcohol abuse are on the increase, children have lost respect for their elders. At the same time technology has advanced in quantum leaps. [b]There is no doubt that today, if channelled correctly, man has all the resources necessary to create a good standard of living for all mankind. He lacks only the social and political will. Mashiach will inspire all men to fulfil that aim.

Why the belief in a human Messiah?[/b]

Some people believe that the world will “evolve” by itself into a messianic era without a human figurehead. Judaism rejects this belief. Human history has been dominated by empire builders greedy for power.

Others believe in Armageddon – that the world will self-destruct, either by nuclear war or by terrorism. Again Judaism rejects this view.

[b]Our prophets speak of the advent of [u]a human leader[/u], the magnitude of whom the world has not yet experienced. His unique example and leadership will inspire mankind to change direction.[/b]

Where is Mashiach mentioned in the Scriptures?

The Scriptures are replete with messianic quotes. In Deuteronomy 30:1 Moshe prophesies that, after the Jews have been scattered to the four corners of the earth, there will come a time when they will repent and return to Israel where they will fulfil all the commandments of the Torah. The gentile prophet Bilam prophesies that this return will be lead by Mashiach (see Numbers 24:17-20). Jacob refers to Mashiach by the name Shilo (Genesis 49:10).

The prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Amos, Joel and Hosea all refer to the messianic era. For full references the reader is referred to the book Mashiach by Rabbi Dr.I.Schochet.[b] It is interesting to note that on the wall of the United Nations building in New York is inscribed the quote from Isaiah (Ch.11:6), “And the wolf shall lie with the lamb”. Furthermore, it is clear from the prophets, when studied in their original Hebrew, that Mashiach is a Jewish concept and will entail return to Torah law, firmly ruling out any “other” messianic belief.

What sort of leader will Mashiach be?

[u]Mashiach will be a man[/u] who possesses extraordinary qualities. He will be proficient in both the written and oral Torah traditions. He will incessantly campaign for Torah observance among Jews [u]and observance of the Seven Universal Noahide Laws by non-Jews.[/u] He will be scrupulously observant and encourage the highest standards from others. He will defend religious principles and repair breaches in their observance. Above all, [u]Mashiach will be heralded as a true Jewish King, a person[/u] who leads the way in the service of G–d, totally humble yet enormously inspiring.[/b]

When will Mashiach come?

Jews anticipate the arrival of Mashiach everyday. Our prayers are full of requests to G–d to usher in the messianic era. Even at the gates of the gas chambers many Jews sang, “Ani Maamin” – I believe in the coming of Mashiach!

However, the Talmud states that there is a predestined time when Mashiach will come. If we are meritorious he may come even before that predestined time. This “end of time” remains a mystery, yet the Talmud states that it will be before the Hebrew year 6000. (The Hebrew year at the date of this publication is 5763.)

This does not rule out the possibility of Mashiach coming today and now if we merit it. It should be noted that many Torah authorities are of the opinion that we are in the “epoch of the Mashiach” and the Lubavitcher Rebbe [Schneerson] stated on numerous occasions that the messianic redemption is imminent.

[b]Could Mashiach come at any time in any generation?

Yes. In every generation [u]there is a person[/u] who potentially could be the Mashiach. [u]When G–d decides the time has arrived, He will bestow upon that individual the necessary powers[/u] for him to precipitate that redemption.

Any potential Mashiach must be a direct descendant of King David as well as erudite in Torah learning. It should be noted that many people living today can trace their lineage back to King David. The Chief Rabbi of Prague in the 16th Century, Rabbi Yehuda Loew (the Maharal), had a family tree that traced him back to the Davidic dynasty. Consequently, any direct descendant of the Maharal is of Davidic descent.

Maimonides, a great Jewish philosopher and codifier of the 12th Century, rules that [u]if we recognise a human being[/u] who possesses the superlative qualities ascribed to Mashiach we may presume that he is the potential Mashiach. If this individual actually succeeds in rebuilding the Temple and gathering in the exiles then he is the Mashiach.[/b]

What exactly will happen when Mashiach comes?

Maimonides states in his Mishnah Torah – a compendium of the entire halachic tradition – that [u]Mashiach will first rebuild the Temple and then gather in the exiles.[/u] Jerusalem and the Temple will be the focus of Divine worship and “From Zion shall go forth Torah, and the word of the L–rd from Jerusalem.”

The Sanhedrin – a supreme Jewish law court of 71 sages – will be established and will decide on all matters of law. At this time all Jews will return to full Torah observance and practice. It should be noted that in this present age of great assimilation and emancipation an unprecedented return of Jews to true Torah values has taken place. This “Baal Teshuvah” phenomenon is on the increase and paves the way for a full return in the messianic era.

Will miracles happen?

The Talmud discusses this question and again arrives at the conclusion that, if we are meritorious, the messianic redemption will be accompanied by miracles. However, the realisation of the messianic dream, even if it takes place naturally, will be the greatest miracle.

According to some traditions G–d Himself will rebuild the third Temple. According to others it will be rebuilt by Mashiach, while others suggest a combination of the two opinions. Some suggest that there will be two distinct periods in the messianic era: the first, a non-miraculous period, leading on to a second miraculous period.

Maimonides writes, “Neither the order of the occurrence of these events nor their precise detail is among the fundamental principles of the faith … one should wait and believe in the general conception of the matter.”

[b]What will become of the world as we know it?

Initially, there will be no change in the world order other than its readiness to accept messianic rule. All the nations of the world will strive to create a new world order in which there will be no more wars or conflicts. Jealousy, hatred, greed and political strife (of the negative kind) will disappear and all human beings will strive only for good, kindness and peace.

In the messianic era there will be great advances in technology allowing a high standard of living. [/b]Food will be plentiful and cheap.

However the focus of human aspiration will be the pursuit of the “knowledge of G–d.” People will become less materialistic and more spiritual.

[b]What are the birthpangs of Mashiach’s arrival?

The Talmud describes the period immediately prior to the advent of Mashiach as one of great travail and turmoil. There will be a world recession and governments will be controlled by despots. It is in this troubled setting that Mashiach will arrive.

There is a tradition that a great war will take place, called the war of Gog and Magog, and there is much speculation as to the precise timing of this war in relation to Mashiach’s arrival.[/b]

There is a tradition that Elijah the prophet will come to the world and announce the imminent arrival of Mashiach. However, according to other opinions, Mashiach may arrive unannounced. Elijah would then arrive to assist in the peace process. Some suggest that if the Mashiach arrives in his predestined time then Elijah will announce his arrival, but if Mashiach comes suddenly then Elijah will appear after Mashiach has come.

As mentioned before, it is unclear as to exactly how these events will unfold. However, this uncertainty does not affect the general matter of Mashiach’s arrival.

[b]When will the resurrection of the dead take place?

One of the principles of Jewish faith is belief in the resurrection of the dead. According to the Zohar – an early Kabbalistic text – the resurrection will take place forty years after the arrival of Mashiach. However, certain righteous individuals will arise with the coming of Mashiach. All the dead will be resurrected in the Land of Israel.[/b]

There is a small bone in the body called the Luz bone (some identify this bone as the coccyx) from which the body will be rebuilt at the time of resurrection. Our daily prayers are replete with requests for the resurrection and there are many customs connected with it. (See the book To Live and Live Again – SIE Publications)

What can be done to bring Mashiach?

In general, mankind must strive to perform more acts of goodness and kindness. The Jew is mandated to learn and be aware of the messianic redemption, and strengthen his faith in Mashiach’s ultimate and imminent arrival.

Charity is a catalyst for redemption and every day in our prayers we sincerely plead many times for the rebuilding of Jerusalem, the in-gathering of the exiles and the return to Torah observance under the leadership of Mashiach. The Lubavitcher Rebbe [Schneerson] mounted a worldwide Mashiach campaign to heighten the awareness of Mashiach’s imminent arrival. The Rebbe constantly urged every Jew to prepare himself, his family and his community for the arrival of Mashiach. This can best be achieved by “living with Mashiach”; that is, by learning about Mashiach and yearning for his coming.


In conclusion, the Jew always was and remains the eternal optimist. Even in his darkest hour he hopes and prays for a brighter future – a world of peace and spirituality."

 2009/5/20 15:15

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


It is always amazing to me how well the enemy has insulated the Jews from anything that could possibly lead them to their true Messiah. So I think in addition it would be good to briefly revisit how they got so mixed up in the first place:

[url=]Akiba (Akiva)[/url]
[url=]It is NOT in Heaven[/url]
[url=]Silencing the Prophetic[/url]
[url=]Talmudic Revisionism[/url]

Robert Wurtz II

 2009/5/20 21:40Profile


Thank you for caring Robert.
I can listen to Katz over and over with his deep love & passion to reach his kinsmen and what he preached concerning our part in the days ahead. It's truly comes to that. Our love must be pure and based on knowledge.
When Christians post such things as that first Article above, I can barely believe the damage and injury they do to both olive trees. How can such ignorance be over-looked from mature Christians, in a hurry to have this last days thing over with or wanting to escape so that [i]they[/i] can go through Jacob's troubles alone?
That isn't the love of Paul the Apostle, who was willing to give up his own life and more for his people, as Art was - as we should be, but in some cases, it's easier to just turn away from them.
Many 'think' they love Israel - but that test is failed daily and will be more, if we don't understand what they believe, and is at stake for them and those who avoid or twist this last days time-table for their own benefit alone.
GOD Bless you!

 2009/5/20 23:14

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