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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Some faith and receiving verses I don't really totally understand...?

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anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Learn,


Quote:
In the bible proof of God working in and with you is the fruits of the spirit and not signs and wonders. (By their fruits you shall know them.... Many will say ..perform miracles. Then I will tell them plainly, "i never knew you.....Matthew 7:15-23)


I understand what you are saying. It is true that fruit is one of the main proofs of salvation. However, I would also say that signs and wonders are also fruit the fruit of anointing by God. It is true that Judas did signs and yet was damned in the end. However, God does not give out giftings to evil men. One might say that Judas was evil but he may not have been at that point and even if he was there is only enough proof to say that this instance was an exception to the rule in God's prophetic providence and plans. For instance Hosea married a harlot because God told Him to, and we know this is not the rule. Stephen for instance is an example of how he was chosen because of his godly reputation and faithfully served as a Deacon and then was anointed and his face was as an angels. Now, speaking about the anti Christ and signs to deceive these are false signs that are also inferior like Jannes and Jambres and God will show as a testimony that His signs are greater to attest to the true prophets. Also, the very word "sign" denotes that it is something that is there to prove or show and in this case God. So, signs are to prove the Gospel. If you don't agree with this I will share some scriptures to show you and I derive my theology wholly from Scripture. Throughout history God has used signs to prove to man like Aarons rod, the red sea, ect.

Acts 2:22

Acts 14:3

2 Corinthians 12:12

Hebrews 2:4


Quote:
I also disagree with the statement that 'to propogate the Gospel, then He surely wants to heal.'


If you would have taken into account the whole of my message you would see that I said that I am not persuaded that God wants to heal all. I did however say that I think most and it is the exception to not want to and much of it is on the part of man. The reason I say if God wants people saved then He wants them healed is because Jesus did signs to attest to the Gospel and therefore if God wants to save people then He wants to do what it takes to do so namely signs. The Scripture I was quoting was when Jesus said is it easier to heal a man or to forgive his sins if therefore it is then why do you not believe I can forgive sins. Or He said do not come for the bread but for the sign and He did not mean come for entertainment but come because if you see the sign you will see what it is pointing to.


Quote:
He mat/may not chose to heal, my suspicion is more often than not He chose not to heal the physical illness in these times as compared to bible times.


This is something I would like to remark on if I may. Your suspicion may be rooted in an evil heart of unbelief. It may not I don't know, but I can say in the past it has been for me. I was convinced that it was not, but that is the nature of deception that you do not know you are deceived. The natural man cannot understand spiritual truths and even so as Christian as we are maturing from that natural state we are often to certain degrees not understanding. Also, about "bible times" I can say that in the past as well I felt this way a little that how could such things happen in our day it is so far off it is almost mythical and so many things would pressure me towards that. Hear me on this though Scripture says that God will pour His Spirit out in the last days. Are we not deeper in the last days then even the Apostles? I would say that as the day draws near that the Spirit of God will be poured out with more abundance. We are living in Bible times we are the continuation of the book of Acts yet we have the book of Revelation imagine if the Apostles had the book of Acts before they lived it that is what we have in Revelation a book that tells us the things we as the Church will be experiencing hard times but gloriously anointed ones! The old testament period and all the great things that happened then are but shadows of the things that are to happen in our days. The early new testament were but the beginnings they were to be an example and exhort us for even harder and more glorious times as Paul was to be an example to those later and how He foretold of perilous times to come. If you hold to a theology that says that gifts were only for those times or whatever I would lastly like to note that the verse which Peter quoted in Acts about the Spirit being poured out in the last days was in context to the day of the Lord and the tribulation which has yet to come upon us, but as most feel is soon upon us.

 2009/5/21 4:24Profile
learn
Member



Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


 Re:

Hi Anonymity,

I did read your previous posts before replying earlier. and I do know that you have mentioned that you are not persuaded that God will heal all earlier, thus I had to say I was also somewhat surprised to see when you posted those sentences which I quoted you in my earlier post.

However, the only reason I wrote what I wrote earlier is because I think those few (not all) sentences of yours may mislead those newer to the faith and its and not because I'm interested in debating this matter (although I can understand that my post may have given some sort of this impression). Thus, that's why I quoted only a few scriptures to explain and 'talked' very little.


Quote:

anonymity wrote:
This is something I would like to remark on if I may. Your suspicion may be rooted in an evil heart of unbelief. It may not I don't know, but I can say in the past it has been for me. I was convinced that it was not, but that is the nature of deception that you do not know you are deceived.



Still no interest to debate on this matter (although I do not agree with your views in your latest posts) except to say that no, my suspicion is not rooted in an evil heart of unbelief as you seem to think it may possibly be. Each of us have our own journey with God
and each of us will have difficulty and be possibly deceived in different areas (and sometimes the same areas).


_________________
geraldine

 2009/5/22 12:54Profile









 Re: Some faith and receiving verses I don't really totally understand...?

anon,
I don't know. A lot of the questions that the Body of believers ask, or areas of theology that engender legitimate dialogue among the Church, I personally veer away from...prosperity, pre-destination, premillenialism, etc etc etc, my view is this, meaning where the Spirit leads me, "I believe God", and "I believe on Jesus and Him Crucified", or as Paul, swept along by the Spirit said in Philippians:

Quote:
I rejoiced in the Lord greatly that now at length you have revived your concern for me. You were indeed concerned for me, but you had no opportunity. Not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need. I can do all things through Him Who strengthens me.



Philippians 4:10-13 (the above is ESV)

the less I "know", or strive to figure out in my human mind, and the more I open a circumsized heart to His Will, the smaller i become, little, low before Him, then He can use me, if it is His Will, no matter what the "size of my wallet", or the eloquence of my speech, or the hard religiousity of my view of "doctrine", only when I become less, and He becomes more, is anybody fit for service in the Lord, just to cast all flesh away, and to say "I believe You, Master of the Universe, Yahweh"...by life or by death.

to be nothing, so that He can be Everything.

God bless you, keep you, love you, neil

 2009/5/22 17:45
bible4life
Member



Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1559
Locport, Illinois

 Re:

The scripture actually tells us that all that our not born again our at enmity against God, that means they hate God. All of the epistles teach our about living righteous and holy, signs will only happen if God gives that to happen, but remember it is God not us doing it, the signs that your a believer is our new nature and that God has changed our wicked , god hating being into a servant of the living God to be a righteous holy people, many people our decieving everyone saying signs and miracles our proof but it is not the main proof.Many christians today in the scholarly world believe that signs were for the new testament church and ended their, but who knows but miracles is not the main sign. The main sign is that God is living in us and that wqe know that he has forgiven us of our sins, i am not miracles and signs don't happen but i don't think they our the main sign.


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John Beechy

 2009/5/24 1:09Profile
anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Learn,

I see so you thought some of the sentences I wrote sounded off. I probably could have written more exactly. I was hoping though that in saying what I did that they would be taken in context, but I understand that this does not always happen. But, yeah, like I said I do believe that since God wants to save He also wants to give signs since signs lead to salvation. This is not always the case, but I'd say most of the time. However, I mean HE always wants to but it is the people who are disobedient in some way and because of that HE does not want to though He does if you see what I am saying. So in one sense He wants to heal the Pharisee but in another sense He does not once again if you see what I am saying.

I do not want to argue either. I do however like to discuss these things for edification. Some people cannot discuss without arguing which is sad, but it is what it is. It is true we are all at different places in our walk and the Lord is working in all of us in different ways.

 2009/5/24 2:02Profile
anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Neil,

Hello brother God bless you.

I think you have noticed that I sometimes post questions that can be difficult. I do not post to be difficult but because they are difficult and I would like to discuss them to have them answered. I hope that you notice that I am not posting and then arguing or something. I am just trying to discuss and it is true that sometimes people will aruge or something which can be de edifying, but I don't really know what to do about that on a forum like this you have young and old strict and relaxed.

As for bringing these topics up and the need to ect. I think that it is important to bring these topics up. I also understand that the main thing is the love of Christ and so forth but these truths are tied to true love they are one and the same. I know that these topics can be discussed in a false spirit, but my aim is truth. I like to talk about prosperity, pre destination, and premillenialism all of these doctrines have practical value to how we walk. For instance much of the Church is going down false paths because of their lack of true doctrine.

Thanks for the exhortation and I know the importance of it and need to be reminded. I have partook in conversation about doctrine that was done in the flesh and for a time decided not to talk about doctrine but I do not want to go to extremes.

 2009/5/24 2:10Profile
anonymity
Member



Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Bible4life,

Yes it is true that sings will only come to those who are obedient. I tried to kind of clear it up with Learn a second ago saying that God wants to heal most people but most people are disobedient so He in another sense does not want to heal most people though He does initially. For example God wants to save all people but if they don't repent He also wants to send them to hell.

There are false signs today and I would say many maybe most that are claimed to be are false. But, if you notice I have been talking about genuine miracles those which overcome the false signs from sorcerers like in Egypt with Moses.

I would agree that the main sign is loving God and one another. However I do not want to say that importance of signs are little. As it says signs will follow those who believe it is an integral part of evangelism and one of the main workings of God. I say with Paul I would that you lacked in no gift. It is vital.

As for those teachers which teach Cessationism or that the gifts have ceased I would say are emphatically false. I would even say that as we as conservative Christians take other false teaching seriously that we should also take this false teaching as such. I have thought about this view and studied it over thoroughly. They'd say that the gifts were only for the founding of the Church maybe kind of sort of like a kick start. They will sight the verse which says that the Apostle and prophets were for the foundation of the Church. It sure says that but it does not say that they have ceased or that we do not need that foundation to continue. I'll say again Joel tells us that in the last days that Spirit will be poured out on all flesh and they prophesy ect and this is in context to the tribulation ect and this has yet to occur. And I just thought if prophets have ceased then who are the 2 witnesses who blow fire from their mouths are they not prophets and do they not prophesy. Or if signs have ceased then where did the fire come from.

The mass of the Churches theology of eschatology is fundamentally off. As God delivered Israel from Egypt so He is coming to deliver His people from the Pharaoh Satan and from this world. So as God worked in that time mightily so He will again in the last time. The best times of the Church have not past but they are yet to be and to crescendo. Just as our salvation is greater so will be the signs.

 2009/5/24 2:25Profile
bible4life
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Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1559
Locport, Illinois

 Re:

You could be right brother, you could.


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John Beechy

 2009/5/25 1:51Profile
anonymity
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 393


 Re:

Bible4life,

I hope so I try not to be extreme and look at all things sincerely.

As for the cessasionist thing. I understand that much of their stance on the subject is motivated by not wanting to be mixed up with all the false things going on today and I sympathize with that. I'd say also though that sometimes in us not wanting to be like something or attacking something we find false that we jump to the other extreme. My perception is that many different ministries "emphasize" in different things. The reason for this is because they have received revelation in this area. It is hard to find a well rounded ministry because it is hard to have revelation in many different things. A lot of the time a person who is gifted in the body as an evangelist will emphasize that ministry and then they will divide with pastors and that is just the way it is. This is why we need to continues in apostolic growth. Some of it is also based just on unbelief as well since these things are little seen but we need to derive our theology from scripture not from what we see. Hard times and I pray that the body comes to completion and that I not be one to tear things down in negativity.

 2009/5/25 22:10Profile
bible4life
Member



Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1559
Locport, Illinois

 Re:

i personally love the writings of men like charles spurgeon, andrew murray, paris reidhead, or speakers like paul washer they reveal truth from the scriptures like no other. I believe like paris reidhead says that God doesn't save us so we can go to heaven but to make us holy righteous people who live to serve and glorify him, thats a great question why does God save us truly.


_________________
John Beechy

 2009/5/25 22:54Profile





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