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Hi again everyone,
'...If we have had even a small glimpse of HIM in all of His Holiness, Truth and Love and knew that HE never acts outside of, nor within one but not the other two always, our discernment or judgments would be as HIS in these things.'
This is something that I think should give us great reason for caution in these things.
In the Psalms it says,
"With the pure thou wilt show thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt show thyself froward."
- Psalm 18:26(KJV)
According to Strong's the first word rendered froward is:
From H6140; distorted; hence false: - crooked, froward, perverse.
And the second is:
A primitive root; to twine, that is, (literally) to struggle or (figuratively) be (morally) tortuous: - (shew self) froward, shew self unsavoury, wrestle.
Christopher Joel Dandrow
| 2009/5/19 4:34||Profile|
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I didnt post this thread as a way of slamming Todd Bentley, but merely to show that the entire thing was a sham from beginning to end. Anyone with an ounce of Biblical discernment knew that from the outset of the Lakeland thing.
As for Todd Bentley... he doesnt need counseling, or to be restored... he needs to be saved.
No one else here has the guts to say what scripture has already said... so I will say it: There was no fruit of salvation evident in Bentley's ministry, actions, doctrine, behavior or adultry and subsequent marriage which has only continued his adultrous lifestyle.
That is not the fruits of the Spirit. Scripture says that you can know if someone is a Christian if the fruits of the Spirit are made manifest in one's life.
I'm not saying that from a mean-spirited heart because I have no feelings one way or another about the man other than sympathy for his lost soul.
One can not put forth such gross error, gross false doctrine, claim to have kicked people in the face in the name of God, cuss while you're "preaching" and joke about it, bilk people for $$, committ adultry with somone on your ministry staff, divorce your wife and marry your adultrous girlfriend... and be a Christian.
It's impossible. And I'm sorry, but anyone who honestly believes the man is saved is ignorant of scripture, and I dont trust you.
Perhaps he's gotten saved since all this imploded upon him, I dont know. He's been silent (and he should remain silent, not "restored").
I know I'll draw some fire for saying all this, but frankly I dont care. The truth is the truth whether you like it or not.
So, having said all that... I tell you all that I do feel sympathy for the man in his lost state. I pray for God to reveal Himself to this man and save him beyond the uttermost.
| 2009/5/19 8:06|
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And by the way... dont tell me you love Paul Washer's preaching, and turn around disagree with my last post.
| 2009/5/19 8:18|
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I have watched several of Bentley's videos and I am appalled that [i]anyone[/i] would be impressed with his [i]ministry[/i]. As a female I think the guy is absolutely repulsive. How on earth anyone could even take his word for anything is beyond me ....and I think I do have some commonsense - which is why I suppose it is better for a male to take him in hand and work to show him how far away from God he is. But to restore him to ministry?? Lord have mercy! The guy is gross, he would have to undergo some radical transformation to NOT be gross.
OK, I admit I am responding emotionally...
| 2009/5/19 10:02||Profile|
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"And I'm sorry, but anyone who honestly believes the man is saved is ignorant of scripture, and I dont trust you."
Very true brother, we shall know them by their fruits. The first time I ran into this kind of lack of discernment was back in the middle 90s a few years after I got saved. There was a woman who was shooting up heroin and starving her baby. I was told that she was a Spirit filled Christian and that she was "on the road," meaning I suppose, that she was being sanctified. I remember thinking , "wow." Of course the Scriptures speak to these issues "Do not be fooled(when the Lord actually tells us not to be fooled then there is obvioulsy great danger of being fooled) those who "practise(key word) these things shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven." ...........Frank
PS....."Better the smite of a friend than the kiss of an enemy." The truth spoken in love is the most powerful weapon that we have, the love , of course, is the supernatural love of God burning within us, it never shy's away from speaking the Truth. Its bold and it terrifies the enemy of our souls.
| 2009/5/19 11:12|
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"No one else here has the guts to say what scripture has already said... so I will say it: There was no fruit of salvation evident in Bentley's ministry, actions, doctrine, behavior or adultry and subsequent marriage which has only continued his adultrous lifestyle." Krispy
This is basically my view as well. It's not like we don't have the benefit of history here. This has played itself out, and from that we can glean what could be coming back to the church. My reaction to these things... this especially, in my view, are in direct proportion to those who adamatly defended all this before we knew what we knew.
People who were warned of this ahead of time were warned with good intentions because they were being deceived. And at that time the people here giving the warnings were labelled 'judgmental', 'cold hearted', 'legalists', 'pharisees'... the list goes on. They could not see our intentions and it seems as though they didn't care. When I was speaking out against this (I had a different acct at the time), I wasn't just debating those who labelled us, I was talking to those who had to make a choice and were confused about what to believe about the whole thing. Those who were on the fence. This stuff will return, the Bible says so. I think many who came here like a flood to defend the Lakeland counterfeit need to examine themselves and Scripture more so than the ones forced to defend a position that bore itself out correctly. No matter how our position was presented or worded the backlash was still the same in intensity and judgment.
Krispy you are just calling a spade a spade. I respect that quality in these matters. Anything less seems disingenuous and gives ground on a firm stand. My character can be judged, and perhaps in good faith by some, but I believe that my Scriptual discernment here is correct and that won't budge.
| 2009/5/19 11:29|
| I'm going to ask this again.|
and just by the very silence to my question, which is why do we forthtell about the trainwreck that is Todd Bentley, and yet ignore the sordid episode surrounding the president of the NAE, Ted Haggard? This silence of my entreaty speaks volumnes.
I'm not trying to bait anybody, I am in earnest in asking why give ANY leader in ministry a free pass, when they have indulged in such gross and blantant sin?
Is it because for many years Ted Haggard did not appear "replusive" or "gross"?...yet at the same time while maintaining this appearance of Godly piety, he was steeped in sin, and apparrently led more than one child of God astray, including opening up, as leader of a megachurch, a large assembly to God knows what demonic spirits.
It just seems to me to be 'cherry-picking' which apostate backslidden "preacher" we subject to righteous indignation.
Indeed, if I myself am on a "pay no mind" list, thats fine, but this line of forthtelling on this thread me vexed and perplexed, and I feel, and I could very easily be wrong, but I feel that there is little love and respect for those brethern that are of "Pentecostal" or dare I say, "charismatic" leanings, on this forum. I pray I'm wrong. As I am a strong proponent of unity, this just breaks my heart, because as the Spirit leds, my heart is lead by what we have in common, what we share in this Most Holy Faith, however at the same time, I don't share these leadings about the roman institution, or Jehovah's, or followers of Smith, Mormons, etc....basically those who have attached other attainments onto the Lamb of God, Jesus.
But why give Haggard a free ride, and only focus on Bentley?, thats my question
| 2009/5/19 11:47|
| Re: I'm going to ask this again.|
I dont think anyone is cherry picking. Everything about Bentley's "ministry" was false... from his teaching/doctrine to his lies about healing.
Haggard taught and held to orthodox Biblical doctrine. His sins may have led people astray, but his teachings did not. Therein lies the difference.
Haggard was not a false teacher... he was a man who struggled with deep rooted sin.
Bentley flaunted his error and sin (w/the exception of adultry).
Bentley = false teacher
Haggard = flawed teacher
And just for the record, I've never defended Haggard, nor do I think he should be restored to the ministry.
| 2009/5/19 12:01|
| Re: I'm going to ask this again.|
I am not trying to defend Todd Bentley in any way. The events in Lakeland that happened, his sin, and some of his beliefs are deplorable.
I do have a few questions to ask you brothers however. Is it possible for a true Christian to backlide? Is it possible for one that is saved to get back into the works of the flesh, get in error and deception?
To say that Todd Bentley was never saved is to be ignorant of his life, what he went through in his past, the battles that he fought as a young Christian.
There are many Christians that are truly saved, and I am speaking now from personal experience that has had to overcome issues from their past.
The issue is here if one is truly a brother, if he has a repentant heart, and has turned away from his sin. If this is the case, then the Word of God says that those that are spiritual should restore such a one in the spirit of meekness.
The bible is very clear on church discipline. If a brother repents then we are to restore him to fellowship, if he remains in his sin then we are to follow scripture, try to reason with him and if neccessary to treat him as a heathern and a publican, not even having fellowship with him.
I have written to Rick Joyner questioning the restoration process that is going on with Todd Bentley. The thing that I have a problem with is that while saying that he has repented from his unfaithfulness to his wife, he has divorced her, and re married. I understand that there are some complicated issues here.
The main thing that I have a problem with most of you brothers is that you say Todd Bentley was never born again. I believe that if many of you knew the actual facts of his childhood, and what he came out of when he first received the Lord, you would be of a different opinion.
I might have alienated many of you brothers from stating my views, but I am not trying to save Todd Bentley's reputation by doing so, but am seeking the truth concerning this whole matter.
In His Love,
| 2009/5/19 12:12||Profile|
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The cherry picking allegation is, AND LET ME BE CLEAR, RIDICULOUS.
Ted Haggard did not have the same outpouring movement that Bently had. This was a short and intense time period when clear lines were drawn in the Church on whether or not this was a true move of God. IT WAS ON GOD TV all over the globe and people were coming from various countries by the droves to see these manifestations. There was little debate about Ted Haggard while he was preaching. For one, no one knew his personal life was steeped as such for so long. Secondly, Ted Haggard wasn't claiming to be lifted up to heaven in a portal, gutted by alien beings, having his guts thrown on the floor and turning to gold, then having truth 'sown' into him by alien beings on a heavenly gurney.. all the while having wide eyed listeners in complete awe and accepteing every outlandish story that was told. No, this was not Ted Haggard. Ted Haggard to my knowledge, did not have a Pastor from Germany come over and say that he was visited by angels at a burger shop where they turned his insides to gold then making a video of he and his buddies in a hotel telling everyone that they were in "the flow" while bouncing around all over the hotel room in some form of an epileptic seizure while his buddies laughed as it was some comedy act. Ted Haggard didn't have this man on stage and state to him: 'do you want some of this?' to which the man responded 'yes' and Bentley gave him a flying knee to the gut which produced another convulsion-like episode. Subsequently, Bentley said 'the Lord told me to knee him in the gut so I kneed him in the gut'.
Ted Haggard's church was filled with people (in general) who wanted to listen to the Gospel.... not people who were wanting to see lying signs and wonders from all across the globe. Ted Haggard, as reported by one of his people, did however sponser a faith healer who looked drunk on stage and was seen laughing at the man after the event. Ted Haggard would probably have lacked discernment on the Lakeland event but we'll never know. Ted Haggard is a tragedy, Todd Bentley is also a tragic situation... but there is a clear difference. Ted Haggard supporters did not troll this forum in droves calling us liars and pharisees when he fell from grace. Ted Haggard didn't draw a bunch of prophets from different areas to lay hands on him and give him somekind of supernatural prophetic mantel. Ted Haggard didn't stumble around on stage saying 'we are not drunk as you suppose' to hysterical laughter from the audience in what looked like a complete mockery of the Gospel. Ted Haggard didn't bring terminally ill people from all over the country promising healing only to leave them and their families out in the prophetic wind.
Cherry picking??? There have been many fallen pastors throughout the history of the church, some saved.. some perhaps not.... but the likes of Lakeland is a rare event. God is giving us a warning in His mercy by showing us the damage of Lakeland and false prophets. The real false prophet will do things no one can imagine and people will take it like a fish takes a worm if we don't take heed.
| 2009/5/19 12:37|