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"One of the things that came to mind about this is not only if people would want others to get what they deserve, but would want to administer it themselves. Or would even want to go beyond that, like a man that would continue to kick and to beat and to bash a man to death that is fallen before him." ChrisJD
Talk about kicking and bashing someone when they are down, how about taking a terminally ill brother and promising healing. Who wants to go tell their family and children that it just wasn't meant to be even though the prophet said so as thousands witnessed. This is why faith is jaded, this is why Christ cannot be glorified, this is why 'a word from the Lord' can be accepted as a word even if the Bible says nothing to that effect.
Who gets what they deserve isn't the issue, we all deserve hell. But not all of us preach a false Gospel, not all of us make promises in vain in the name of Jesus and deceive with tall boastings. Their is a difference between simply being a sinner and deceiving many. One needs Christ and knows it, the other uses Christ and proves his shame. The last days will be full of these just as the Bible states. We are told if someone preaches a Gospel other than the Gospel we have that we put up with it easy enough. Was Paul kicking and bashing?
2 Corinthians 11:4-10 (New International Version)
4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles." 6I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way.
Discern for yourselves if one is speaking a different Jesus or Gospel that is outside of what is in Scripture, but don't accuse those who take issue with a false movement as bashing a poor brother who misled others and their families into thinking they were healed as an offering plate was being circulated in the meantime. These are the historical facts of Lakeland and it wasn't hindsight that many on this forum saw it for what it was and warned accordingly before the fallout.
| 2009/5/18 20:48|
| Re: |
Lakeland was the testing field for the "lying signs and wonders" to come.
The man kneed people in their stomachs and performed many things that were demonically supernatural not only in Lakeland but in other "shows" - throwing light balls and calling them "angels".
This was a case of full-blown demon possession in action.
Jesus warned us of these false prophets with lying signs and wonders.
Ananais and Saphira lied to the Holy Spirit and the man that Paul blinded by the Spirit did 10,000 times less than this man has - yet we find the mild posts on this thread too harsh - speaking of the demon possessed defiling for filthy lucre thousands of ignorant 'christians'?
GOD help us when there are these type in the majority if we can't discern this one.
| 2009/5/18 20:55|
| Re: |
Discern for yourselves if one is speaking a different Jesus or Gospel that is outside of what is in Scripture, but don't accuse those who take issue with a false movement as bashing a poor brother who misled others and their families into thinking they were healed as an offering plate was being circulated in the meantime.
No one said anything about a 'poor brother being bashed'.
If you cant read what others write without reading yourself into it, or without misrepresenting what they wrote without asking them first, you should seek help with discerning your own heart attitude.
Christopher Joel Dandrow
| 2009/5/18 21:14||Profile|
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ChrisJD, I may have misunderstood your post but not so much the one I responded to originally which suggested that we are bashing or kicking a false prophet while he's down and implying that we would want them to get what they 'deserve' in a punitive fashion. You expounded on that by talking of going beyond it. If I didn't quite get your response I apologize and any clarification is welcome.
| 2009/5/18 22:14|
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Thank you very much for your reply.
If I could go back to this for a moment,
[i]...but would want to administer it themselves[/i]
I hope that the examples of the scripture that followed would speak to this.
Considering Joab, who, having his own king's son hanging from a tree before him, and with orders not to kill him, speared him not once but three times.
I think that a discussion like this is a very serious matter.
And something that would be safe to examine ourselves very closely in doing.
Christopher Joel Dandrow
| 2009/5/18 22:57||Profile|
| Brothers and Sisters.|
I am in total concurrence with you all regarding Todd Bentley, total and absolute, and God in His Mercy has exposed him.
Will he be contrite enough to confess, repent and make restitution? Only God knows. Has he sought Godly counseling? I don't know, I would like to see him restored as a [b]Blood bought follower of Christ[/b], and no, it would not be appropriate for him to serve in any kind of God honoring ministry, but I beg the question, why confine the vehemence and outrage over Bentley's 'snake oil' tent ministry, and nary a peep about the President of the [b]National Association of Evangelicals[/b] Ted Haggard being exposed as a lying deceptive homosexual whore-mongering meth snorting sex fiend, who broke with the restorative process, and even to this day, has a website that solicits donations for a 501 non for profit that helps the "poor and needy".
To me, that whole affair smacks of the devil and demons, and rebellion, I believe that Ted Haggard doesnt get the scorn, because while Bentley LOOKED like a freak, weird tatoo's, weird earings, all that grabage, Ted Haggard's out ward appearance was of the normal "pastor", neat haircut, suit, tie, etc, and he talked the talk, said all the right things, "voted" the right way, all the while engaging in such a hideous hypocritical deception.
anyone with any sense of Biblical discernment could "smell", sense that something was way off the rails about bentley, but Ted Haggard was very very slick, and therefore did much greater harm to the Church, the Body of Christ in America, not to mention the saints at New Life in Colorado Springs.
and it also came out, ex post facto, that Haggard had more than one homosexual affair, another one that New Life reportedly paid 179,000 to a young male congregant to cover counseling and college tuition:
On January 23, 2009, officials from Haggard's former church announced that a young male church member had come forward in 2006 and that there was an "overwhelming pool of evidence [of an] inappropriate, consensual sexual relationship [that] went on for a long period of time [with Haggard] ... it wasn't a one-time act." Haggard's successor, Brady Boyd, said the church reached a six figure settlement with the man, who was in his early 20s at the time. According to the man, he said the contact was "not consensual" and this is not about "opening new wounds" it's about a much larger issue. The man, Grant Hass, added that New Life Church paid him $179,000 to cover his counseling to help recover from the situation, and pay college tuition.  Haggard admitted to the second relationship with Hass on CNN and other media, and when asked if he had had additional gay relationships that have been unreported, Haggard would not provide a direct answer
Now don't mistake me, I am not slamming Haggard, God have mercy on that man, but go to these two next entries and you tell me, if there is anything resembling contrition, repentance in this man:
the first is an article from Denver News, the second is Haggard's current WEBSITE!!! Is he just a carnal fleshling who has NO Fear of God?...or is he plain outright demon possessed? the utter gall and rebellion of the man! May God keep my heart pure.
[url=http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/15228215/detail.html]Church says Haggard's 'restoration' incomplete[/url]
[url=http://tedhaggard.com/index.htm]Ted Haggard Dot Com[/url]
so what is it brethern? Which is worse?
or is that the wrong question? or Are both of these stenches equally deserving of reproach?
It just seems to me, that one has been ignored by a segment of the Body, while another has attracted all sorts of (well-deserved) scorn.
Let me finish with this, I've been blessed, in my walk with Christ, with a Godly, dear hearted mentor, who over time has become as close as an older brother, and my best friend. I cannot thank and praise God enough for sending such a brother into my life, and I know the feeling is mutual. Early in my walk, due to the nature of my job, I was frequently free (like a pastor) during the day to attend to ministry, meaning that my brother (my pastor) would take me to the duties of visiting elderly congregants, shut-in's, and take me on hospital visits, presbyter breakfasts and prayer meetings, etc etc.
Of course, i would be silent, I would just provide prayer covering both for him, and those who were elderly, and/or dying, or sick....and I remember one hospital visit to a dear old man at death's door, skeletal, skin like parchment, eyes closed, and my mentor took this man's hand in his, and I gently put my hand on top of pastors hand, and pastor started to pray healing over this dear man, and then pastor started to speak of Jesus, gently, low, told this man about the need to accept Jesus as Saviour and Lord, and then asked this man, "are you prepared to ask Jesus into you heart and your life?" at that moment this man opened his eyes, weak, looked into pastor's eyes, and almost imperceptively nodded. I was there, I saw it, and I looked over at his vital signs on the monitor, and you could see, at that moment his heartbeat quickening. We all were silent, hands on hands, this went on for about two three minutes, it was a moment I'll never forget. Pastor looked at me, nodded, and we left silently, wrapped in prayer.
Later, while having lunch at Denny's , pastor got a call from the mans daughter, he had crossed the Jordan, he died, and I said to my brother, "I learned something today, we pray for healing, at the altar, in a hospital room, and sometimes in the Will of God, death is healing, because when you walk with Jesus, and you slip this tent of flesh, the Heavenly Jerusalem awaits, and once you have this Divine Merciful assurance, death of body has no hold of fear over you ever again. You have slipped the bonds and bondage of death, into a glorious eternal reality inherent in Christ Jesus".
God is Merciful, may we be the same.
| 2009/5/18 23:02|
| Re: |
ChrisJD, Understood. Thank you. I don't want to come off as wanting anything that would give the impression that love is lacking even for those who are apartied to these kinds of ministries. Behind my passion to give perspective on these matters is a good intention and a wanting for the God's mercy and redemptive intervention. Sometimes it seems necessary to invoke that passion to drive the point if it's an important topic for me personally... which it is. But sometimes the manner of the response can be counter-productive which is also important.
Had God not shown me the damage done with many of these outpourings and enlightened me to the willingness of some to accept practically anything many leaders proclaim outside of the Bible, my passion on this matter would be muted. My intention is not to keep throwing stones but to keep some of the known damage done at the forefront lest we forget and let our guard down in the future. I've had personal dealings with local ministries in faith healing and was brought out of a false doctrinal theology as a young christian by God's grace. I believe in the gifts of the Spirit but what drives my perpective are the intentions of those who claim certain gifts only to leave a trail of people with jaded faith wondering what might be wrong with them and their faith or lack thereof. Witnessing these things has been troubling to me.
| 2009/5/18 23:32|
| Re: |
Mat 24:2425 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.
2Co 11:13-15 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
I believe we've all been together long enough to form true Godly affection for one another - my question is - why would we come harder against one another here at times than we do these "angel of light ministers"?
The reason is our lack of an understanding of GOD.
HE is unfathomably HOLY - HE is jealously TRUTH and HE is Perfect LOVE; all Three Personified in One Divine Nature.
We mistakenly seperate HIS Characteristics or put more emphasis on one Characteristic over another. One day stressing Holiness, but lacking in Love - One day stressing Love but lacking that jealousy over His Truth.
We could not stand up in the Presence of HIS Holiness - our minds could never grasp the intensity of all that makes Him The Truth and our bodies could not hold up under the fullness of His Love, yet all three are never seperated in HIM. HE consistantly acts and 'thinks' out of the perfect union of the three Equally and always.
If we have had even a small glimpse of HIM in all of His Holiness, Truth and Love and knew that HE never acts outside of, nor within one but not the other two always, our discernment or judgments would be as HIS in these things.
Rom 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
We wouldn't put Love before Truth - nor Holiness above Love nor any other combination of the splitting of HIS Divine Nature.
We need this glimpse of GOD in His Entirety before the hoards of hell are loosed upon this earth and discernment will be needed more than ever.
We can only discern when we've had that genuine glimpse the Genuine. Until we 'know Him'. Until we've had the full revelation of Who GOD Is. Until we've 'seen' HIM spiritually.
Never do we ever want to divide up HIS Holiness from HIM being The Truth and that HE is Love. We need to see them all working equally at once. Always, from the GOD Who is Holy - Who is Truth and Who is Love, all at the same time.
We need a True Revelation - a 'seeing' The GODHEAD, so that like Paul, our jealousy over His Character would remain, above human thinking or emotional feelings.
The days of following HIM by 'emotions' - 'intellect' - mystical feelings or just by parroting other's writings are over.
We need to be fully filled with the revelation of His meaning of "In Spirit and In Truth" - "In Truth and Love" - "our GOD is a Holy GOD - HE IS THE Truth - HE Is Love" - never working in one attribute without the other two active - ever.
Even His Holy judgments are based on His Love of His Truth.
We'll never know this equality of attributes or this constant Balance without a true Revelation of GOD.
GOD help us to See You - to seek You until we do have an Isaiah type 'seeing' of You in Your Fulness by revelation of Your Word and by seeking You with all our hearts for this True Revelation of Your Divine Nature, Amen.
| 2009/5/19 0:24|
| Re: |
"We could not stand up in the Presence of HIS Holiness - our minds could never grasp the intensity of all that makes Him The Truth and our bodies could not hold up under the fullness of His Love, yet all three are never seperated in HIM. HE consistantly acts and 'thinks' out of the perfect union of the three Equally and always.
If we have had even a small glimpse of HIM in all of His Holiness, Truth and Love and knew that HE never acts outside of, nor within one but not the other two always, our discernment or judgments would be as HIS in these things."
Amen Jesus-is God. Just one single moment in the presence of Almighty God, just a moment and all nonsence would be swept away. We must be " witnesses to power," or we are no witnesses at all. When we share the Gospel, it must be a first hand account. When it is a first hand account, there is power. Simply repeating a story that you heard and that you give mental assent to, carries no power............Frank
| 2009/5/19 0:55|
Logan City, Queensland, Australia
| Re: |
Here's a clip from Wretched TV where Todd Friel interviews Baptist minister Justin Peters, who did his postgraduate work on the history of the Charismatic renewal (with a focus on Benny Hinn).
Peters has cerebral palsy (which I also have) and went to the Lakeland Revival as a "Secret Shopper":
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNc4_eQmedQ
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSNSmKKtMXA
| 2009/5/19 1:14||Profile|