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 It is not about being guilty "in" Adam except. . .

[color=000000]It is more than just being about guilt. By His death, Jesus Christ took the penalty of sin away. That penalty being death. It cannot be denied that death was propagated by the blood of Adam. Life is propagated by the Blood Of Jesus Christ. David said this about himself: "In sin did my mother conceive me". Jesus was not conceived in sin. The line of death was broken and more: It was conquered. Jesus made, "drawing nigh unto God", possible. Hebrews 7:19 (KJV)

One further remark: I did not infer that we experienced a Spiritual death when Adam transgressed. I don't believe man did. Though our spirits were separated from God that separation does not, in my estimation connote, separation from God's blessings as they were based upon obedience of man to God's law, written upon the heart. Too many men lived loving God after the transgression as evidence of this truth.. The revelation of God was unmistakable, to the righteous.

So, are we guilty of Adam's transgression?. NO! However, we carry the result being that of death, separation from God unless the Blood of Jesus Christ is appropriated to ourselves. He is the way out death and the way back in to a "life" relationship IN the Father.[/color]

 2009/5/18 5:03









 Re: It is not about being guilty "in" Adam except. . .

Hello Intense,

I hope to comment on your post, without being required to offer scriptural proof in detail. Please receive this as a couple of thoughts for your melting pot, rather than for contention.

Quote:
Too many men lived loving God after the transgression as evidence of this truth.. The revelation of God was unmistakable, to the righteous.

Is not this because He had begun to cover their sin with animal blood in Eden, and continued to communicate with them? Then, after the Flood, He offered a new covenant to Noah about seedtime and harvest - which is the basis of [color=003399]Matt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.[/color]

Who cannot love this God of grace?
Quote:
One further remark: I did not infer that we experienced a Spiritual death when Adam transgressed. I don't believe man did. Though our spirits were separated from God that separation does not, in my estimation connote, separation from God's blessings as they were based upon obedience of man to God's law, written upon the heart.

Thus, there is a denial of the spiritual nature of sin, and its stranglehold on mankind, the spiritual serpent which was slain on the cross. John 3:14, 15; Numbers 21:9. 1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual... 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


I can't add to Paul's revelation. It seems that he is clear we needed a life-giving (quickening) spirit. That by itself suggests that the spirit we had before, was neither spiritually alive, nor, 'a life-giving spirit'.

 2009/5/18 11:18









 Re:

Quote:

Alive-to-God wrote:
Hello Intense,

I hope to comment on your post, without being required to offer scriptural proof in detail. Please receive this as a couple of thoughts for your melting pot, rather than for contention.
Quote:
Too many men lived loving God after the transgression as evidence of this truth.. The revelation of God was unmistakable, to the righteous.

Is not this because He had begun to cover their sin with animal blood in Eden, and continued to communicate with them? Then, after the Flood, He offered a new covenant to Noah about seedtime and harvest - which is the basis of [color=003399]Matt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.[/color]

Who cannot love this God of grace?
Quote:
One further remark: I did not infer that we experienced a Spiritual death when Adam transgressed. I don't believe man did. Though our spirits were separated from God that separation does not, in my estimation connote, separation from God's blessings as they were based upon obedience of man to God's law, written upon the heart.

Thus, there is a denial of the spiritual nature of sin, and its stranglehold on mankind, the spiritual serpent which was slain on the cross. John 3:14, 15; Numbers 21:9. 1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual... 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


I can't add to Paul's revelation. It seems that he is clear we needed a life-giving (quickening) spirit. That by itself suggests that the spirit we had before, was neither spiritually alive, nor, 'a life-giving spirit'.



None of that has anything to do with the subject. Sorry to disappoint you in that.

 2009/5/18 11:26









 Re: It is not about being guilty "in" Adam except. . .

Hello Intense,

Quote:
None of that has anything to do with the subject. Sorry to disappoint you in that.

I don't mind you preferring not to comment, but why did you write that middle paragraph in your leading post?

Quote:
So, are we guilty of Adam's transgression?. NO!

Btw, I agree with you on this statement, at its face value.

 2009/5/18 12:04









 Re:

What do you believe being in bondage means if not being in bondage to that which binds you? I.e., death; separation from God BECAUSE of someone else's transgression? What were we set free from, if not that issue? What did redemption accomplish, if not freedom.

 2009/5/18 12:12









 Re: Damnable Heresies



TO Intense:

There are numerous religions (cults) that deny the concept of original sin.

1. The Bahá'í's say man is born good and that we need education to reform ourselves. Likewise their predecessors Islam also teaches their is no original sin.

2. The Mormon church also denies it by saying that Adam did not fall from his state of innocence downward but actually fell upward. That by listening to the devils lies it actually gave him the opportunity to become a God. So in essence the Devil told the truth. (Jesus said the opposite that he was a liar and a murderer from the beginning)

3. Others, including the Catholic church, teach that the original sin in man can be erased by baptism and that we then sin of our own choice, it is then dealt with by taking the sacraments.

4. The International Church of Christ believes that everyone inherits the consequence of Adam's sin (physical death), and not his nature. Everyone seems to deal with this in different manners, but all in one way or another recognize man as not living to his potential.

Today, near the end of time, we find not only the cults listed above that deny original sin, but others amongst us, who have slipped into the body of Christ, trying to teach damnable heresies. When what they are teaching is pointed out to them as heresy, they never rely on Scripture to support their position. They cannot, because Scripture does not support them, and neither does Church History support them. So, they bring others like themselves with them to support the damnable heresy, to back them up, and to support their false teaching, and try to deceive others that what they teach is of Christ, and is of God.

[b]How many times is the word guilt found in the Old Testament and the New Testament? TWICE!
What does the Old Testament & the New Testament tell us about guilt[/b]?


[b]The word GUILT appears only twice in the Bible, in the Old testament, in Deuteronomy 19:13, and in Deuteronomy 21:9. However, Strongs Concordance does not even have a Hebrew word shown for the word guilt.

In other words, it was placed there by the Translators. There is no Hebrew word, found in the Old Testament, and no Greek word found in the New Testament for the word GUILT[/b]

(Deut 19:13)
13. Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.

(Deut 21:9)
9.So shalt thou put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the Lord.


Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

Intense wrote:
What do you believe being in bondage means if not being in bondage to that which binds you? I.e., death; separation from God BECAUSE of someone else's transgression? What were we set free from, if not that issue? What did redemption accomplish, if not freedom.

 2009/5/18 13:53









 Re:

Yes, I guess. Why this addressed to me?

Quote:

waltern wrote:


TO Intense:

There are numerous religions (cults) that deny the concept of original sin.

1. The Bahá'í's say man is born good and that we need education to reform ourselves. Likewise their predecessors Islam also teaches their is no original sin.

2. The Mormon church also denies it by saying that Adam did not fall from his state of innocence downward but actually fell upward. That by listening to the devils lies it actually gave him the opportunity to become a God. So in essence the Devil told the truth. (Jesus said the opposite that he was a liar and a murderer from the beginning)

3. Others, including the Catholic church, teach that the original sin in man can be erased by baptism and that we then sin of our own choice, it is then dealt with by taking the sacraments.

4. The International Church of Christ believes that everyone inherits the consequence of Adam's sin (physical death), and not his nature. Everyone seems to deal with this in different manners, but all in one way or another recognize man as not living to his potential.

Today, near the end of time, we find not only the cults listed above that deny original sin, but others amongst us, who have slipped into the body of Christ, trying to teach damnable heresies. When what they are teaching is pointed out to them as heresy, they never rely on Scripture to support their position. They cannot, because Scripture does not support them, and neither does Church History support them. So, they bring others like themselves with them to support the damnable heresy, to back them up, and to support their false teaching, and try to deceive others that what they teach is of Christ, and is of God.

[b]How many times is the word guilt found in the Old Testament and the New Testament? TWICE!
What does the Old Testament & the New Testament tell us about guilt[/b]?


[b]The word GUILT appears only twice in the Bible, in the Old testament, in Deuteronomy 19:13, and in Deuteronomy 21:9. However, Strongs Concordance does not even have a Hebrew word shown for the word guilt.

In other words, it was placed there by the Translators. There is no Hebrew word, found in the Old Testament, and no Greek word found in the New Testament for the word GUILT[/b]

(Deut 19:13)
13. Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.

(Deut 21:9)
9.So shalt thou put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the Lord.


Sincerely,

Walter
Quote:

Intense wrote:
What do you believe being in bondage means if not being in bondage to that which binds you? I.e., death; separation from God BECAUSE of someone else's transgression? What were we set free from, if not that issue? What did redemption accomplish, if not freedom.


 2009/5/18 15:35









 Re: It is not about being guilty "in" Adam except. . .

Hello Intense,

Quote:
What do you believe being in bondage means if not being in bondage to that which binds you? I.e., death; separation from God BECAUSE of someone else's transgression? What were we set free from, if not that issue? What did redemption accomplish, if not freedom.

I mistakenly thought we'd covered this ground in the other thread 'Adam's sin ... our guilt?'

Perhaps you agree with Romans 6 as I do? That we must be baptised into Christ's death to receive this freedom? That to be baptised into Christ's death necessarily requires [u]repentance[/u], which is an acknowledgement of our own transgressions, iniquities, wickedness (ie 'sins'), and a desire to walk in newness of life [u]free from 'the sin'[/u] - not merely a mental assent towards freedom-from-association with Adam's transgression?


waltern, I appreciated your post. I know that we don't suffer from original guilt! Paul's allusions to 'conscience' might be the best way to read 'sense of failure' or any other synonym for 'feeling guilty', but I haven't studied that out properly, yet.

 2009/5/18 16:01









 Re: Damnable Heresies



So sorry, Intense. It was directed to Alive-to-God.


Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

Intense wrote:
Yes, I guess. Why this addressed to me?
Quote:

waltern wrote:


TO Intense:

There are numerous religions (cults) that deny the concept of original sin.

1. The Bahá'í's say man is born good and that we need education to reform ourselves. Likewise their predecessors Islam also teaches their is no original sin.

2. The Mormon church also denies it by saying that Adam did not fall from his state of innocence downward but actually fell upward. That by listening to the devils lies it actually gave him the opportunity to become a God. So in essence the Devil told the truth. (Jesus said the opposite that he was a liar and a murderer from the beginning)

3. Others, including the Catholic church, teach that the original sin in man can be erased by baptism and that we then sin of our own choice, it is then dealt with by taking the sacraments.

4. The International Church of Christ believes that everyone inherits the consequence of Adam's sin (physical death), and not his nature. Everyone seems to deal with this in different manners, but all in one way or another recognize man as not living to his potential.

Today, near the end of time, we find not only the cults listed above that deny original sin, but others amongst us, who have slipped into the body of Christ, trying to teach damnable heresies. When what they are teaching is pointed out to them as heresy, they never rely on Scripture to support their position. They cannot, because Scripture does not support them, and neither does Church History support them. So, they bring others like themselves with them to support the damnable heresy, to back them up, and to support their false teaching, and try to deceive others that what they teach is of Christ, and is of God.

[b]How many times is the word guilt found in the Old Testament and the New Testament? TWICE!
What does the Old Testament & the New Testament tell us about guilt[/b]?


[b]The word GUILT appears only twice in the Bible, in the Old testament, in Deuteronomy 19:13, and in Deuteronomy 21:9. However, Strongs Concordance does not even have a Hebrew word shown for the word guilt.

In other words, it was placed there by the Translators. There is no Hebrew word, found in the Old Testament, and no Greek word found in the New Testament for the word GUILT[/b]

(Deut 19:13)
13. Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.

(Deut 21:9)
9.So shalt thou put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the Lord.


Sincerely,

Walter
Quote:

Intense wrote:
What do you believe being in bondage means if not being in bondage to that which binds you? I.e., death; separation from God BECAUSE of someone else's transgression? What were we set free from, if not that issue? What did redemption accomplish, if not freedom.



 2009/5/18 16:31









 Re:

Quote:

Alive-to-God wrote:
Hello Intense,

Quote:
What do you believe being in bondage means if not being in bondage to that which binds you? I.e., death; separation from God BECAUSE of someone else's transgression? What were we set free from, if not that issue? What did redemption accomplish, if not freedom.

I mistakenly thought we'd covered this ground in the other thread 'Adam's sin ... our guilt?'

Perhaps you agree with Romans 6 as I do? That we must be baptised into Christ's death to receive this freedom? That to be baptised into Christ's death necessarily requires [u]repentance[/u], which is an acknowledgement of our own transgressions, iniquities, wickedness (ie 'sins'), and a desire to walk in newness of life [u]free from 'the sin'[/u] - not merely a mental assent towards freedom-from-association with Adam's transgression?


waltern, I appreciated your post. I know that we don't suffer from original guilt! Paul's allusions to 'conscience' might be the best way to read 'sense of failure' or any other synonym for 'feeling guilty', but I haven't studied that out properly, yet.



For the purpose of this discussion I don't see the connection. Sorry.

 2009/5/18 16:45





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