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humblyD
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Joined: 2009/5/14
Posts: 17


 True Gospel or Other Gospel

A few days ago a thread was posted about Joseph Prince. I am curious as to why there were not more responses. My conclusion: either people don't know who he is, or they don't see anything wrong with his teaching. Why haven't there been more responses to provide helpful information to the person asking for some help? Do people generally think that he is teaching the true Gospel? Or, do people not know what he's teaching?

 2009/5/16 10:24Profile
sojourner7
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Joined: 2007/6/27
Posts: 1573
Omaha, NE

 Re: True Gospel or Other Gospel

Joseph Prince is of the "name it and claim it'
school of faith. He believes GOD is bound by
covenant to bless us and cause us to prosper
and succeed. This is not the gospel Christ
taught and Paul preached!!


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Martin G. Smith

 2009/5/16 10:28Profile
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 Re: True Gospel or Other Gospel

Watch these 2 clips by Paul Washer. If he is not preaching such a gospel then he is not preaching a gospel at all:

[b]We Know Not The Gospel - Part 1 by Paul Washer[/b]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty5uHLqdglY&feature=channel_page

[b]We Know Not The Gospel - Part 2 by Paul Washer[/b]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDRewWqVDsI&feature=channel_page


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2009/5/16 10:29Profile
humblyD
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Joined: 2009/5/14
Posts: 17


 Re:

Thanks for the response and encouragement. I have watched or listened to several of Paul Washer's messages, and wholeheartedly agree with Paul. I've suspected that Joseph Prince's message is prosperity oriented, but feel that he cloaks it subtly, which makes it difficult to expose to those deceived by it. In one message, he insists on the "centrality of Christ" in the Gospel, something I've not heard too many times from properity preachers. How can I expose his false doctrine to my friends who are so deceived by it?

 2009/5/16 10:38Profile
bible4life
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Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1559
Locport, Illinois

 Re:

m friend told me to liosten to him because he was good and the first thing that popped in my mind after watching was that by the end it was that his message was leaning on prosperity and lifting us up. But i caught on because of people like washer and others on youtube and other christians who have exposed them and their ways. If sin is not bought up and how we our to repent then surely the holy spirit is not their in that message or in that building unless with a true beliver. Hey their is a great video on youtube called the blind and the dead by texe marrs.


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John Beechy

 2009/5/16 11:45Profile
learn
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Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


 Re:

http://www.newcreation.org.sg/resources/video/videomessage.htm

Have you seen this sermon that I've attached the link above ie "Your Every Blessing is found in the person of Jesus". It will help you understand what his theology is about and you can then go through with your friend with the bible on hand to show where he is wrong. I believe it may also help you understand something of his definition on the "centrality of Christ"




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geraldine

 2009/5/16 13:35Profile
Grace2016
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Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 7


 Re: Struggle to Understand fully what the True Gospel is

I confess for years I have studied the Word in search of an answer, and still today I struggle to understand just what the TRUE gospel is. I'm not the only one for I can attest that while working in a Christian book store for several years one day I posed that question to several as I talked with them at the register. After asking three or four I thought had enough scripture under their belt to give me their understanding I stopped the survey, because after a few words, every one of them drew a blank face, then their dismay turned to anger as they realized they did not know. This my friends is the sad state of the Church that perishes for lack of knowledge and I include myself in that.

I post the following article I found online that states Washer is teaching a false gospel. Sadly I truly do not know. I have to say I am still out on just what the gospel is and I thank the originator for posing this very critical subject and ask God to forgive me if anyone is offended or their faith weakened because of my desire to fully understand.

It's very long but critical it be posted in its entirety due to its utmost importance. The author makes some strong scriptural arguments to justify his position, but still I do not know.


[b][size=medium]Paul Washer's FALSE GOSPEL![/size][/b]


By David J. Stewart

Paul David Washer is a false prophet, a member of the apostate Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), who teaches Lordship Salvation. Here's a one hour video sermon where Mr. Washer brainwashes a group of 5,000 youths to believe that they cannot be saved unless they stop living in sin. Like it or not, salvation is a free gift which does not require self-righteous works. Don't Mess with the Gospel.

Paul Washer makes many good statements, and he is certainly correct about the fake Christianity and apostasy in America. However, he makes the deadly error of confusing the FRUIT of repentance with the ROOT of repentance.

Washer is adamantly clear that a person is not saved who doesn't have a drastic turnabout in their lifestyle. Yet, the Bible is filled with believers who sinned horribly; such as, Noah, Lot, Jacob, Judah, Samson, David, Solomon, Jonah, Peter, Ananias and Sapphira and the carnal church at Corinth.

Please read the best explanation I've ever read concerning the Gospel and repentance, by Pastor Harry A. Ironside (1876-1951). Clearly, Ironside taught a Free Grace view of the Gospel. Consider further the following quote by Dr. Ironside...

“The Gospel is not a call to repentance, or to amendment of our ways, to make restitution for past sins, or to promise to do better in the future. These things are proper in their place, but they do not constitute the Gospel; for the Gospel is not good advice to be obeyed, it is good news to be believed. Do not make the mistake then of thinking that the Gospel is a call to duty or a call to reformation, a call to better your condition, to behave yourself in a more perfect way than you have been doing in the past …

Nor is the Gospel a demand that you give up the world, that you give up your sins, that you break off bad habits, and try to cultivate good ones. You may do all these things, and yet never believe the Gospel and consequently never be saved at all.”

SOURCE: Harry A. Ironside, from the sermon: What Is The Gospel?

Also, Dr. John R. Rice, founder of the Sword of the Lord, made the following excellent statement in his Gospel tract, What Must I Do To Be Saved . . .

“The change in your heart, sinner, is God's part and you may be sure He will attend to that. Your part is to simply believe in Him. Whatever else is necessary in your eternal salvation, the Lord attends to when you trust in Him, or believe in Him.”

SOURCE: What Must I DO To Be Saved, by Dr. John R. Rice

That is what the Bible teaches. This is quite different from what Paul Washer teaches. It's not what you're doing that gets you to Heaven, it's where you're looking. Look to Jesus! Isaiah 45:22, "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." Kindly said, Paul Washer is doctrinally messed up.


Biblical Salvation is Without Works

To no surprise, Paul Washer never once mentions salvation as being the “free gift” of God in his sermon. Yet that is exactly what it is called in Romans 5:15. Mr. Washer wrongly defines “repentance” as a ceasing from living in sin BEFORE and AFTER salvation. This effectively makes eternal life a reward and not a gift.

Paul Washer's speaks double-talk . . .

What you need to know is that salvation is by faith, and faith alone in Jesus Christ. And faith alone in Jesus Christ is preceded and followed by repentance — a turning away from sin, a hatred for the things that God hates and a love for the things that God loves, a growing in holiness and a desire — not to be like Britney Spears, not to be the like world, and not to be like the great majority of American Christians; but to be like Jesus Christ. [emphasis added]

SOURCE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8

That is a false Gospel. In one statement Paul Washer says that we are saved by faith alone; but then in the next statement he subtly requires giving up one's sinful lifestyle to be saved. This is not faith alone. The Bible is clear that salvation is without works. Romans 4:5,6, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works."

According to Paul Washer's thinking the church congregation at Corinth wasn't saved, because they lived in horrible sin. Yet, Paul calls them “babes in Christ” in 1st Corinthians 3:1. In Romans 12:1, Paul begged the believers at Rome to surrender their lives to God, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." They were saved, but they hadn't presented their bodies to God “a living sacrifice” yet. Look at the carnal church at Corinth! They were suing each other (1st Corinthians 6:6), eating meats offered to idols (1st Corinthians 8:12), allowing fornication within the church (1st Corinthians 5:1), showing up drunk at the Lord's Supper (1st Corinthians 11:21), et cetera. The carnal church at Corinth is proof that Lordship Salvation is a lie. I am not trying to justify believers who live in sin. I am simply saying that our salvation is not dependent upon giving up our sins.


What is Biblical Repentance?

Pastor Harry A. Ironside (1876-1951) correctly understood repentance . . .

"Repentance is the very opposite of meritorious experience. It is the confession that one is utterly without merit, and if he is ever saved at all it can only be through the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ, 'who gave himself a ransom for all.' Here is firm footing for the soul who realizes that all self-effort is but sinking sand. Christ alone is the Rock of our salvation." (Harry A. Ironside; Except Ye Repent, pg. 36)

Clearly, Ironside taught a Free Grace view of the Gospel. H.A. Ironside correctly recognized repentance as the confession that "one is utterly without merit" and that if one is "ever saved at all it can only be through the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ." Salvation is without works of self-righteousness. Romans 4:5 plainly teaches that a man's faith is COUNTED for righteousness, i.e., the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to one's heavenly record by faith.

"Repentance is the recognition of my sinnership — the owning before God that I am as vile as He has declared me to be in His holy Word."

SOURCE: Except Ye Repent, by Dr. Harry Ironside, chapter 3

Repentance and faith are inseparable. The Gospel of John mentions the word "believe" 85-times; but the word "repent" is never mentioned even once. In genuine salvation, one who believes on Jesus Christ has repented; and one who repents has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

According to Paul Washer, saving faith must be preceded by a turning from one's sinful lifestyle. You can't show me even one Scripture that mentions "repenting from sin" to be saved. Here's an online Strong's Concordance.. Type in any phrase you want, but you won't find anything in God's Word about repenting from sin to be saved. Please read, What is Biblical Repentance? Salvation is receiving, not giving! Eternal life is a free gift from God, paid for by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. Man has no part in God's freely given gift of salvation except to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31).

You can study the Bible over and over and you'll only find that salvation is the free gift of God. Heretics like Paul Washer attempt to connect holy living with salvation, which is the heresy of Lordship Salvation (i.e., works salvation). This is the same damnable heresy that Ray Comfort teaches. Say what you will, Romans 4:5 is abundantly clear that a person's faith is COUNTED for righteousness, because we have no righteousness of our own to offer God. All we have to offer God is our own self-righteousness, which is filth to God (Isaiah 64:6; Romans 10:3,4).

I think Paul Washer is sincere, but nevertheless sincerely wrong. Washer, like other misguided ministers today, confuse the FRUIT of genuine repentance with the ROOT of repentance. To require FRUIT for salvation is to put the cart before the horse and corrupt the simplicity of the Gospel.


Paul Washer Corrupts the Meaning of Matthew 7:14

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

In the video, Mr. Washer differentiates between the words "gate" and "way" in Matthew 7:14, claiming that Jesus is the gate, but the "way" refers to a continued life of holy living. This is heresy! Washer's teaching completely ignores the plain truth of Romans 4:5... "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Could the Word of God be any clearer? A sinner's faith is counted for righteousness! It is Jesus who justifieth the UNGODLY by faith; NOT by works! A man's faith in Jesus is equivalent to a life of righteousness.

If Paul Washer is correct, i.e., that Jesus was teaching that salvation requires walking a strait "way" of continued obedience to God, then salvation is a PROCESS. This is the same damnable heresy that the Salvation Army teaches.

Paul Washer states...

“There is no such thing as a carnal Christian (time: 21:40 in video)... The Bible never teaches that a person, can be a genuine Christian and live in continuous carnality and wickedness and sin all the days of their life...” (time:22:20 in video)

SOURCE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8

What about Lot? Lot lived so sinfully that his sons-in-law laughed in his face when he tried to warn them concerning the judgment to come. Yet 2nd Peter 2:7 calls him “just Lot.” Lot was saved. What about the carnal church at Corinth? Paul calls them “carnal” and “babes in Christ” in 1st Corinthians 3:1. They certainly were carnal and saturated with sins.

Washer further states...

“But if you profess to have gone through the narrow gate, and yet you live in the broad way ... just like all the other people who are carnal and wicked ... the Bible wants you to know that you should be terribly, terribly afraid — you know not God.” (time: 24:37 in video)

SOURCE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8

It is dangerous that Mr. Washer is twisting Matthew 7:14 to include holy living as part of saving faith. Jesus was not teaching Matthew 7:14 simply contrasts the narrow path to life (Heaven) verses the broad highway to destruction (Hell). Paul Washer perverts this Scripture in an attempt to support his false doctrine, just as Ray Comfort perverts Luke 8:13 in an attempt to support his false doctrine, just as John MacArthur perverts Hebrews 12:14 in an attempt to support his false doctrine. Salvation is receiving; NOT giving!


The Southern Baptist Convention Needs to Do Some Repenting of their Own

Paul Washer shamelessly professes to be a Southern Baptist, which has become sinfully ecumenical in recent decades.

Southern Baptist Churches are notorious for so-called Christian Rock 'N' Roll. There ain't no such animal. Something is very wrong when the music sang in our churches closely resembles the same heathen music of the godless world. There's drums in the background on Paul Washer's video, which have no place in any church. Evidently Mr. Washer doesn't have a problem with worldly music in the church.

Furthermore, why did the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) lift their 8-year ban against Walt Disney? God hasn't lifted His ban! Was it because too many SBC churches were losing the support of worldly congregations who wanted to take their kids to Walt Disney? Walt Disney never budged an inch on their homosexual GAY DAYS. Why doesn't Paul Washer preach against his own Southern Baptist Convention? He's pressuring young people to stop living in sin if they genuinely want to be saved, while remaining silent about the cesspool of wickedness within the Southern Baptist Convention. I'm just calling it like I see it.


Paul Washer Endorse Apostate Minister, Billy Graham

Paul Washer is bad news! He promotes apostate minister, Billy Graham (time: 37:00 in video). Billy Graham is of the Devil, who is a 33rd degree occult Freemason. Mr. Graham has endorsed the Satanic Pope, claims to have many gay friends and has done more to corrupt the church than any man alive. How could Paul Washer speak so highly of such a sinister minister as Billy Graham?

Paul Washer's Perverted Gospel

Paul washer teaches a false Gospel which requires a person to continue on God's path of righteousness in order to be saved. This is works salvation. Being born-again isn't a process! Like other false prophets, Mr. Washer deceitfully claims to believe in salvation by faith alone; while simultaneously telling young people that they must have a hatred for sin in order to be saved. This eliminates growth in grace. Please read what Dr. John R. Rice had to say concerning worldly teens who profess to be saved. Although God certainly expects each believer who loves the Lord to depart from sinful living, this is NOT a prerequisite to the gift of eternal life. Christ died for THE UNGODLY (Romans 5:6).

Heretics like Paul Washer teach that sinners must stop living in sin in order to be saved; whereas the Bible teaches that we need only come as GUILTY sinners to Jesus for forgiveness. God is the One Who changes our life. There's a big difference between repentance "OF" one's sins, verses "FROM" one's sins. The Word of God teaches that we simply need to realize we are GUILTY sinners for violating God's holy Law and turn to Jesus to be forgiven (Romans 3:19; Acts 16:31).

As witnessed by Lot and Samson in the Old Testament, not all believers live a holy life. Argue as you may, repentance in the Bible simply means "a change of mind." Salvation is as simple as a person realizing their guilt as a sinner, and turning in faith to the Savior for salvation. The Law of God shows us our hopeless condition, and then points us to the Savior for salvation. The change that God expects in our life comes as a result of genuine repentance, and is not required as a part of saving-faith.

Like other Lordship Salvationists, Paul Washer confuses the FRUIT of the believer's faith with the ROOT of the believer's faith. Certainly, believers' don't have God's permission to sin; however, that doesn't give anyone the right to corrupt the Gospel by mandating a consecrated life as part of saving faith. Please read what Dr. Harry Ironside had to say about those who require a commitment to Christ to be saved.

Read what Dr. Ironside correctly said in his Gospel tract, ANOTHER GOSPEL? ...

"When anyone comes promising salvation to those ‘who make full surrender' of all that they have to God, and who 'pay the price of full salvation' he is preaching another gospel, for the price was paid on Calvary's cross and the work that saves is finished. It was Christ Jesus who made the full surrender when He yielded His life on Calvary that saves us, not our surrender in any way to Him."

SOURCE: Harry A. Ironside, from the Gospel tract, Another Gospel.

Thank God for doctrinally sound Bible teachers like Dr. John R. Rice and Dr. Harry Ironside. I believe Paul Washer is sincere, but he has bought into the lie of Satan that a sinner must amend his ways and stop living in sin to be saved. This is not what the Bible teaches. Like it or not, salvation is the gift of God and is completely without any works of self-righteousness. A changed life is the result of genuine repentance, which comes after the fact. Salvation itself is by God's undeserving grace. Romans 4:5 silences all the critics...

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." —Romans 4:5

Beware of Paul Washer

The Foolish Doctrine of Lordship Salvation

Dr. John R. Rice speaks on worldly Christians — Are they not saved?

Dr. Curtis Hutson speaks on Biblical repentance — Must a person stop sinning to be saved?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ye Must Be Born Again! | You Need HIS Righteousness!





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Paige

 2009/5/16 19:38Profile
NoWhining
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Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 67
East Texas

 Re: True Gospel or Other Gospel

Sorry, HumblyD, I didn't know anything about Mr. Price, so I kept quiet. Grace2016, I never heard of Stewart, so I googled him and browsed through his site. But one thing in his article,

"It is dangerous that Mr. Washer is twisting Matthew 7:14 to include holy living as part of saving faith. Jesus was not teaching Matthew 7:14 simply contrasts the narrow path to life (Heaven) verses the broad highway to destruction (Hell). Paul Washer perverts this Scripture in an attempt to support his false doctrine,..."

caught my attention. A few weeks ago, when God shook my world, it was Matthew 5, 6, and 7 that He commanded me to read, to immerse myself into, and my life has not been the same. I heard Mr Washer's message after this, and have only complete agreement with him. I don't live this life because Paul Washer preaches it, but because I was taught it by The Lord. Before, I was a Christian, now I'm a slave of the Lord.

Seek the Lord, and He will direct you in the way.

God's Blessings to you, brothers and sisters.


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Don

 2009/5/16 21:35Profile
learn
Member



Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


 Re:

Grace2016

I do not know who David J Stewart is. Neither did I bother to read his article further after a few setences because could see that he was already wrong. However, Paul Washer is certainly not a false teacher. What he teaches is in line with what the bible says. And it is Lordship salvation. One cannot be saved unless one makes Jesus his saviour and also LORD (whether one is consciously aware that he was LORD at the time of his salvation). I believe there is a book by John MacArthur on Lordship Salvation.


I sympathize with your current dilema. Have read your other posts where you are wondering about your salvation etc. Just something that you may want to think about. I know that Paul Washer puts out invitations after his sermons (not sure whether its all his sermons) for people that doubt their salvation etc to see him after his sermons and he's willing to stay all night to help you. There was one instance when after his sermon he spoke to a man that said he was dying soon and didn't know Jesus. Paul Washer said that he was willing to cancel his flight home the next day and stay as long as necessary to help him find God. I believe Paul Washer's 'speciality/calling' is bringing unsaved people to God. Below is his website where you'll find his preaching schedule and some of his sermons. He has more sermons/studies elsewhere on the internet posted by others
http://www.heartcrymissionary.com/


People do twist words of other teachers etc or paste a few short clips (especially in Youtube) of pastors and say that this is what they mean when its not true etc. I've noticed it happen to true pastors (and I think to false teachers as well). Thus, I am always very careful not to just take things at face value. If you are having difficulties understanding the bible, then I think its so important that you follow pastors that are really solid in the Word of God so as not to mislead you into the wrong gospel. Would like to recommend some good pastors that are really solid in their teaching. You can get their sermons/teachings from SermonIndex website or other websites. Also, maybe getting a bible commentary (I like Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary) will help you. You can find his commentary on the internet. I'm thinking of getting John MacArthur StudyBible too in addition to my commentary

http://www.sermonindex.net/


Paul Washer


John Piper (John Piper's website is DesiringGod where his articles/sermons are free and you can sort them out by topic/title etc)
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/

John MacArthur
http://www.biblebb.com/index.htm

Paris Reidhead
Leonard Ravenhill
J C Ryle

There are many others too but the above are some of my favourites.


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geraldine

 2009/5/16 23:16Profile
bible4life
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Joined: 2009/1/21
Posts: 1559
Locport, Illinois

 Re:

I have read this before and have been on his sight and his site he considers almost everyone a heretic. I would read his material with very very good discernment. I disagree with him too. He misinterprets Paul Washer completely. Paul is not talking about a works salvation but what the fruits of true salvation our.


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John Beechy

 2009/5/17 0:04Profile





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