"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
Christ did not spend his days teaching in the dens of iniquity, but rather took people either to their own homes, to temples, or taught in the outdoors. This is what we should be doing now.
I can't agree more this is very truth, 'evangelicalism run amuck' thats exactly what is happening the most erronous methods and acceptance of techniques and practices have become mainstream and sadly to the masses they are glazed over in a sense and accept these things as 'they have always been'. We need to wake up! No we cannot go into a place of utmost sinful practice and expect ourselves not to be [b]defiled[/b] Paul the apostle tells us to not even mention the sinful practices people do in secret let alone going to the places and witnessing them with our own eyes. Why not have church at hooters? why not allow women who are chrisitans to wear skimpy outfits?
have far we have fallen :cry:
Our standard of what it is to be a Christian is so low, my hopes is from these old recordings we hear will we be jealous to re-capture a new standard even if it means to be debunked by most of so called 'evangelicalism'.
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2004/8/24 14:58||Profile|
Oak Ridge, Tennessee
"Christ did not spend his days teaching in the dens of iniquity, but rather took people either to their own homes, to temples, or taught in the outdoors."
That is only your opinion.
You cannot definatively prove all the places that Jesus taught. It may appear that way to you in your 21st century Westernized mind, but I submit to you that Palestine 2000 years ago in many ways was different than we know it today.
Even a well could have been a "den of iniquity" where ladies of ill repute met their customers.
I don't think folks didn't had Sports Bars and Discos to go to back then. So, they probably often entertained at home.
Also, EVERYTHING that Jesus did is not recorded for us.
25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. John 21:25
| 2004/8/24 15:37||Profile|
Jesus definitely wasn't shy about spending time around sinners, but is there any evidence that He intentionally entered places full of scantily clad women in order to teach the Word? Is there any evidence that He commanded His disciples to do so (i.e. deliberately hold a Bible study or something similar in such a place; the issue isn't whether it's wrong to set foot in a Hooters to distribute tracts and the like, but rather whether we should intentionally schedule our meetings there)?
A Bible study in a bar would be one thing, in Hooters rather seems like another (though, regretably, the standard of dress in many bars isn't much different). To take this to the logical extent, would it be acceptable to schedule a Bible study in a porn shop or strip club?
Personally I would have great difficulties of conscience even setting foot in such an establishment. If it was the only way I could reach certain I people, then so be it (would probably be better to send some Sisters to do the evangelism, though). If there's no pressing need, however, and I can reach these people just as easily on the streets, at events, or even (if necessary) in less-lasvicious bars, why would I bother with a place like Hooters?
If it's pharisaical to want to avoid situations that inordinately expose me to immodestly dressed women (except where truly necessary, and if so I will obey), then I suppose I'm a pharisee. It was the hypocritical pharisees that raised Christ's ire, the more honest ones (i.e. Nicodemus) merely received the truth with admonition for being blind to it so long.
| 2004/8/24 17:47||Profile|
Oak Ridge, Tennessee
We're certainly all not called to do the same things. We all have our part in the body of Christ. But, there are those who are called to go to extreme places and do some unorthodox things.
Just because God didn't put it on MY agenda, doesn't mean He hasn't anointed someone else to go there.
12 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 ¶ Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
I Cor. 12:12-31
We should be blessing our brothers and sisters in Christ who are called to minister by different means than we are familiar with. Like wise, we bless you and the part of the body that God equipt you to be.
As much as I appreciate the messages of the old time preachers featured on SI. You know, Ron Bailey and them 8-). The thought has occurred to me that; if the heritage of truth these wonderfully gifted men of the faith, have passed on to us is the complete picture. Then, we should be living in the millenium NOW.
You just be who God's called you to be my brother.
| 2004/8/24 18:33||Profile|
I certainly do not see anything wrong with evangelizing and being among sinners for a brief time. I think even out on the streets, going into any downtown, ect... would give you ample access to the unchurched and the needy. This is not my argument at all.
I think with the majority of christian men who are in bondage (or really struggling here) to lust, sexual temptation and porn, that men have no business at a Hooters. I agree that women may have an advantage here and could possibly minister to the girls who work there.
My husband is one who has struggled in the past with the stronghold of lust and pornography. He is finally free, but now knows that Hooters- and even the thought of Hooters is out of the question for him- as it should be for many men who still struggle everyday.
Myself, I can identify with the average Hooter girl. This is the type of background I am familiar with. Looks and sex appeal was all I lived for even when I was a professing Christian. This kept me in bondage for years- and this bondage kept me from a real and true surrender of my life to Christ. I can see myself wanting to minister to girls like this- and there are many opportunites to do this. I don't have to go inside and hold a meeting at a Hooters to do this.
I think when it comes to "rights", we need to think of others and will it cause them to fall. Yes, we may have the right or the freedom to enter a hooters to witness to somebody- but is it beneficial to everyone involved? Lawful- maybe yes (for certain people)- but beneficial?
There are soooo many other areas where there are unchurched people, people who really need Christ- why, out of all places does someone pick the inside of a Hooters bar? Maybe people are trying to see how much they can get a way with. They are trying to push the envelope.
Eating at a sinners house once or twice to talk about he gospel is one thing- holding a continuous bible study at a bar that promotes lust and sex appeal with men who are not always truly Christ-like yet - is another.
Talking to and ministering to a prostitute outside or one on one (as Jesus did) is not the same as entering a brothel and holding regular meetings there. I cannot see the disciples holding regular meetings at a brothel or a bathhouse.
This goes so much deeper than "is it ok or not"? I have to really wonder if these men are really thinking about what is is the best interest of their brothers in Christ. or is it just about their "right" to do so.
My 14 yr old daughter is not prudish in any way either, yet i feel for her and hear her heart when we pass by our newly opened Hooters close by. She knows the pitfalls and dangers of the promotion of women's bodies. The dnagers to men as well as women. When she saw this thread, she just replied "I don't see what there is to talk about. It's wrong. Should they hold a bible study (with men included)at the Playboy mansion every week?"
What dangerous waters we are putting ourselves into. I can think of a million other places that need to be evangelized where there are hurting and needy people- why inside Hooters (week after week, nonetheless).
As far as my husband goes, he knows plenty of men with the same problem that he has had and he can't imagine that it is his perogative or even safe to go into a Hooters week after week and try to minister to the people. I am sure there are men out there who do not struggle at all with lust :roll: , so if they feel that they can hold all of their thoughts in captivity to Christ and keep their eyes to themselves- then be my guest.
| 2004/8/24 18:34||Profile|
| Re: Hooters|
Here is a link to an article about it: [url=http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/religion/040814/meet.shtml]http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/religion/040814/meet.shtml[/url]
| 2004/8/24 19:29||Profile|
San Diego, CA
I can definitely say that what you wrote was truly inspired by the Spirit of God. As I read what you wrote, I could say nothing but amen and amen. For those of you who would defend a continuous bible study week after week in a bar where cleavage and tight shorts are prevelant I would challenge you with this.
Imagine for a moment The Lord Jesus walking into Hooters every Wednesday night and his disciples following him because they want to be where He is and hear God's Word. For some reason I don't think that most of the men would not be distracted with the fight that is in front of them and resisting the temptation of lust. To think that God almighty would bring His church into a place where they would be tempted is to have an utterly false view of God and I can only picture Christ coming into that bible study and overturning those tables full of "wings and salad". Why? Because when God entered a house in His earthly ministry it was for the point of ministry and the possibility of repentance and to change the lives of those he would affect in that house. That house would then be used for the glory and honor of God in holiness of living and the ministry. Please try to convince us of the possibility of Hooters and it's method of operation being used for that purpose, while still holding onto it's abased practices of service to the lust of the eyes and the lust of the flesh. The 2 are in complete contradiction to each other. Only in these last days does it seem possible that there would be those in "the church" who would condone such practice as an act of God. There is in that case such a lack of both reverence for the holiness of God, and his call for His people to come out from among them avoiding the appearance of evil and not having fellowhsip with the unfruitful works of darkness. Whether any liberal reader is offended by my comments at this point I do not care. I know of no instance where the early apostles established a church, home fellowship, or bible study (which are one in the same) in an establishment where Satan was to be continually honored throughout the week. God save us from the compromise of these last days and the apathy which comes so subtly as it's coworker.
| 2004/8/24 20:34||Profile|
Oak Ridge, Tennessee
You Said: "I know of no instance where the early apostles established a church, home fellowship, or bible study (which are one in the same) in an establishment where Satan was to be continually honored throughout the week."
This might be one.
12 ¶ And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satans seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
| 2004/8/24 21:07||Profile|
Some of you are certainly right in thinking that we've fallen a long way from the standard that Jesus set. He would have gone anywhere to seek and save the lost. In fact, He did. Can you imagine the choice He made to leave the absolute purity of heaven and the holy presence of the Father in order to enter fully into a filthy, sinful, selfish, greedy, fallen world? A world - I might add - full of fleshly lust and temptation. He opened the door and marched right in. And not just for a one-night Bible study. He did it for us ... to seek and save the lost. What an amazing example! An example we are called to follow.
In John 20:21, Jesus said, "As the Father has sent Me, I also send you."
Now, I don't know if this particular Bible study in Hooters is done in a wise and loving manner, or according to pure motives. But the response of some of you is based on a principle that it would be wrong for us, as Christians, to enter such an extremely sinful world in order to reach the lost. I'm sure glad Jesus didn't feel that way about us.
| 2004/8/24 21:50||Profile|
San Diego, CA
When you say this "might" be one, I appreciate your humility in recognizing that it might not be in context to the present discussion. In response, The letter refers to the persecution that was taking place in Pergomas which even cost one believer who was named here, Antipas, his life. Do not err in thinking the church was established where believers would be surrounded by temptation during a bible study or church service. The persecution was great amongst them to the point of them suffering bodily harm, even death, and yet they had not denied the name of their Savior under such great terror and organized assaults by Satan himself against them, and the Lord commends them for this.
| 2004/8/25 1:11||Profile|