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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Your Opinion: Whats wrong with the church?

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Spitfire
Member



Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633


 Re: Bible Reading

Jina, I appreciate your words of encouragement about diligently studying the Word. I needed it. Not that I don't study, but need to study more. Thanks. Dian.

 2004/10/5 6:43Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

I think my opinioin is similar to Spitfires. Perhaps the biggest problem is a religious spirit. It's taking our primary focus off of intimacy with God and onto other less important things (like good works, etc.).

John 5:39-40
"You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life."

Life is found by coming to Jesus Himself.

It's a simple and commonly heard truth but I think it bears repeating... this whole thing is primarily about genuine relationship with God, and not about religion.

I think the religious spirit is the root cause of many other problems like the Jezebel spirit (control/manipulation), disobedience, lack of hunger, performance mentality, lack of anointing/power, lack of love, hypocrisy, etc.

The relgious spirit seems to stop the flow of anything that God is doing.

I recently heard what I consider a very good definition of a modern day Pharisee. It's someone who glorifies what God has done in the past, looks forward to what He will do in the future, and rejects what He is doing in the present.

There seems to be many problems concerning the Church, but I think this one might be the biggest because it's a root of many others.

Why don't we see revivals like Whitfield and Finney? I think one main reason is we live in a totally different world than they did. Sure, maybe the fundamentals of man's nature hasn't changed, but it seems pretty much everything else has, especially in Western society and culture. Why would it be shocking if if God's movings appear much different today than 200-300 years ago?

 2004/10/5 12:30Profile
theevangelist
Member



Joined: 2003/8/1
Posts: 82
United States Of America

 Re:

The Church needs to humble themselves, get rid of these false prophets (profits depending how you spell it) and "seeker-sensitive/purpose-driven watering down the Gospel" messengers of Satan from behind the pulpit, and get back to that "old-rugged Cross"!!! Get back to The Faith!!!

The Evangelist

 2004/10/5 13:38Profile
ravin
Member



Joined: 2004/5/6
Posts: 309
Washington st. u.S. A.

 Re:

I think we should start with whats right with it. like a boat is it still afloat.who is at the helm? wich direction are we heading? I follow a God of fire and we will be tried. what are we building with the things he gives us or do we bring our own set of building material. what looks good to me, may be substanderd to the master builder. and he will put our work to the test. Question IS HE IN THE BOAT? I'd hate to come to the helm and find goofy at the wheel.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD. are we hearing the word as he gives it? I pray that we all go to the word of truth and follow him; for he is the way the truth and the life. thank you Lord for your word of truth. amen

 2004/10/5 14:01Profile
sermonindex
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
Why don't we see revivals like Whitfield and Finney? I think one main reason is we live in a totally different world than they did. Sure, maybe the fundamentals of man's nature hasn't changed, but it seems pretty much everything else has, especially in Western society and culture. Why would it be shocking if if God's movings appear much different today than 200-300 years ago?


Actually I would personally want to get back to the book of the "acts of the apostles" I want what they had and I want to have the impact they had. I don't want anything that is different surely God will not bypass the way he works as recorded in the scriptures. The reason there was revival in finneys day was because he bypassed the normal theology and preaching in his time and preached the whole counsel of God by the Spirit of God. If you compare the preaching in most churches that are professing revival its a sickening contrast between the preaching of a finney, wesley or whitefield. We need to get back to the book and preaching it with all its truth therein contained.

I do like your comments on the life of Christ and how that is what true revival, preaching, religon will lead a person into.


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 2004/10/5 14:15Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re:


Brother Ravin you posted;

Quote;
"I think we should start with whats right with it. "


We had a pretty good discusion about this some while back on this thread ...

WHAT'S RIGHT WITH THE CHURCH?
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2894&forum=35&18

Christ (again) tells us pretty much what's both right and wrong with His Bride in Rev. chapters 2 & 3 ... So below i'm posting "What Christ sees as RIGHT/POSITIVE with His Bride ...

Rev.2
[1] Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
[2] I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
[3] And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
[6] But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.


[8] And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
[9] I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews (Christians), and are not, but are the synagogue (Church) of Satan.
[10] Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


[12] And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
[13] I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith,


[18] And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
[19] I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
[24] But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this (Nicolaitan) doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
[25] But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.


Rev.3
[1] And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
[2] Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent.
[4] Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.


[7] And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
[8] I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
[9] Behold, I will make them of the synagogue (Church) of Satan, which say they are Jews (Christians), and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
[10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world,


He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches ... "Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God".

 2004/10/5 14:28Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Greg,

You wrote:
"Actually I would personally want to get back to the book of the "acts of the apostles" I want what they had and I want to have the impact they had."

Yes, I think that's the target we are currently shooting for, and what God is restoring. Though it seems He is bringing about that restoration in phases, especially since the times of the Reformation.

It seems clear that revivalists like Finney, Whitefield, and Wesley barely touched the kind of power recorded in Acts. But God was restoring aspects of that power.

Quote:
"I don't want anything that is different"

Ok, but what if God does? What if He wants to restore us to that point and then go beyond? I don't think you want to be left behind. Right?

Quote:
"surely God will not bypass the way he works as recorded in the scriptures."

I think the term "bypass" is unclear. As I just mentioned above, it's clear that the older revivalists barley touched the book of Acts in their ministries. In the New Testament, the norm was miracles, signs, and wonders. Deliverance, healing, the gifts of the Spirit were all normal and functioning in abundance, even in carnal churches like Corinth.

Due to the general absence of these things in the ministries of the older revivalists mentioned, would it be correct to say that God "bypass[ed] the way he works as recorded in the scriptures?" I don't think that's correct. God is in the process of restoration, and it is continually coming in different phases and ways.

Quote:
" The reason there was revival in finneys day was because he bypassed the normal theology and preaching in his time and preached the whole counsel of God by the Spirit of God."

I can't agree with this statement. Finney is a hero of mine in the faith, and I have studied his life and ministry more than I have studied most others. Though I admire the anointing of God on his life, at this point in my life I think his theology (at least what I have studied of it) is disastrous. The way I understand his life and ministry is that God found him to be a suitable vessel for His purposes in that time. So God anointed him with an uncommon power for that time to do an uncommon work for that time. I see Finney as a forerunner, but certainly not as a prototype to imitate such as Jesus and the apostles.

Though I do believe Finney had good intent, at this point in my studies, I don't think it's correct to say that he "preached the whole counsel of God by the Spirit of God", though he did forerun into uncommon realms for his time.

Quote:
"If you compare the preaching in most churches that are professing revival its a sickening contrast between the preaching of a finney, wesley or whitefield."

I wouldn't call it "sickening", but the contrast in some cases does seems clear. Though I do think there's been more similarities in places like Brownsville, espcially Steve Hill's style. But if we even look at the preaching of T.A. Sparks, or a Cymbala, or Tozer, or a Lloyd-Jones there's quite a conrast as well in comparison to these older men of God mentioned.

God clearly uses different personalities in different ways. God used those older revivalists in their time for His purposes in thier time. But the times have very much changed, and today's revivalists may look much different.

To quote a man highly regarded by men who are highly regarded on this site such as Leonard Ravenhill...

"There were days when the church could club men into obedience by preaching hell to them, but that day has long since passed. The world has outgrown it.
Men are discovering there is only one way, and that is the Jesus way. Jesus did not come with a club, but with the great loving heart of the Son of God. He was 'moved with compassion.'"
-John G. Lake, "Spiritual Hunger", pp. 38

Quote:
"We need to get back to the book and preaching it with all its truth therein contained."

Yes, but it seems what we need even more than that is to get back to the Author of the book, for He Himself is the truth, and will lead us into all truth. Right?

Quote:
"I do like your comments on the life of Christ and how that is what true revival, preaching, religon will lead a person into."

I do appreciate your positive comment but did I say that? I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying. I did comment on the life of Christ but I don't think I said true revival, preaching, and religion will get you there. You don't need that stuff to come to Him. You can just come right now. Right? But I think maybe that's not what you meant.

 2004/10/5 20:55Profile
mloaks
Member



Joined: 2004/5/13
Posts: 129
So. MD, USA

 Re:

Agreed, not enough Bible study.
Too bad which translation to read is often a point of contention.
Also, JWs and Mormons use the Bible; are they poisoning our well?!? :-x

Scripture: '...and the Word was God.' John 1

 2004/10/6 14:20Profile









 Re:

The worst things I have discovered that have burdened my heart more then others is the simple fact that we don't know our bibles, we don't pray, and we don't witness. So many false teachings and debates would be thrown out if people simply knew their bibles. I know people that have been Christians for years and years and even "for my whole life" and yet they haven't read the bible all the way through. I don't believe there is any excuse for not reading the entire bible if you have been a christian more then a year. Many claim to know God and yet would admit they have no prayer life. How do you know God but by prayer? Prayer is the door that gives us access to God Himself! That is where we go to get strengthened and anointed. We rush into battle and fail miserably because we don't pray. How can we wonder why we lose if we don't pray?

Lets get back to the simplicity of it all. To our bibles and to our knees! Then once we get a touch from God, to the streets!

I really like what Brother Greg wrote, its well worth reposting:

SermonIndex: "Actually I would personally want to get back to the book of the "acts of the apostles" I want what they had and I want to have the impact they had. I don't want anything that is different surely God will not bypass the way he works as recorded in the scriptures. The reason there was revival in finneys day was because he bypassed the normal theology and preaching in his time and preached the whole counsel of God by the Spirit of God. If you compare the preaching in most churches that are professing revival its a sickening contrast between the preaching of a finney, wesley or whitefield. We need to get back to the book and preaching it with all its truth therein contained."

 2004/10/6 14:44
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 36681
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
Ok, but what if God does? What if He wants to restore us to that point and then go beyond? I don't think you want to be left behind. Right?


Brother Todd, God leads and tells us by the scriptures of what he is going to do. Always in the Old Testament these things were written of what was going to happen in the New Testament times. And then in the New Testament it speaks of all the things that will happen in the future. We need to test things according to the precious word of God. If we are open and wanting something else then we are in very dangerous grounds.

Quote:
I think the term "bypass" is unclear. As I just mentioned above, it's clear that the older revivalists barley touched the book of Acts in their ministries. In the New Testament, the norm was miracles, signs, and wonders. Deliverance, healing, the gifts of the Spirit were all normal and functioning in abundance, even in carnal churches like Corinth.


If we have our eyes on gifts then our hearts are off center. If I am looking for miricales, gifts, healings as the signs of apostolic ministry then I have missed the true essence of what apostolic chrisitanity is. They 'knew God' and they 'walked with God' there lifes were a full contradiction to the lifes of the world, it was heavenly, they were pilgrims, they counted their life nothing. They were a people that oozed out "love", "unselfishness", they saw the heavenely and therefore walked by "faith", they had a hope that they endured through manifold temtpatations "hope", they had a holiness that was Christ-like "holiness", they were a people who communed with God continually "prayer". All these emphasis's I would say are the earmark of apostolic chrisitanity not the ones you mostly mentioned. Sadly the ones you mentioned can cater to the flesh as much as being spiritually benificial.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/10/6 19:41Profile





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