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 Re: Adam's sin...our guilt?

There is an important question to ask when talking about Original Sin. It has been said that Original Sin (being guilty for the sin of our father Adam) is unjust and false teaching, but here is the all important question:

If man cannot be condemned by the disobedience of one man (Adam), then how can man be justified by the obedience of one man (Christ)?

We are justified by faith, to be sure, but the basis of our justification is the obedience of Christ, not ours.


Michael

 2009/5/2 13:55









 Re: Imputation

Another question:

If Adam's sin cannot be imputed to us (his guilt put to our account), then how can our sin be imputed to Christ(our guilt put to his account)?



Michael

 2009/5/2 14:04
clintstone
Member



Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

ceedub , this is great question you have asked. Many biblical schoolars teach that all are born sinful , with a root of sin , and other such names , like sin nature. they take 3 or 4 scriptures from the bible and claim that they are saying that we are born such . these passages do not prove the position that they hold ,that all are born with sin in them. This is not sound doctrine. The bible teaches that all men are born with a disposition,and great overwhelming inclination resulting from and because of the sin in the world we are born into. All of mankinds flesh is affected with the RESULTS of sin . Man being born into a sinful state only means that He is born into a sin cursed life and that by this he is born into the nature of this life which is all condemned to die. This death is not sin itself, it is the results of sin, which in many places of scripture is what the bible is saying when it is teaching on the, nature of sin . Sin came and now the nature of sin and death riegns over all men because of Adam's trangression . Yet now because of Christ we see how we can come and abide in Christ. In Christ, Sin no longer has dominion over those who stay In Christ. Sin is always voluntary, it takes a transgression of the law , to become a sinner. All it takes to be born into a fallen , because of sin , dead state of being,, is being born into this world, without Christ , which all of us were born into this world without Him , except the first Adam and the Second Adam . The second Adam was Christ so He was born of God and Was God . He is that He is, the GREAT I AM . The distinction between the Results of sin , and actually sinning, is the distinction between being born as a baby and then choosing as a child . Does the bible anywhere teach that infants that die go to hell ? No , it does not . it just teaches that all die once , some who go to hell , by rejecting Christ , will die the second death .being born into this first death does not mean that we are born sinful and sinners from conception. Schoolars have messed up 1 john 1:8 . It needs to be translated " He who says he is unable to sin , is a liar . Those who take this scripture as saying, that all men still have sin ,are misinterpeting it. After we are born into this world we are going to sin , miss the mark , willfully choose to disobey Christ somewhere, until we come to the place in Christ that we never sin again . Being free and clean from ALL SIN in this life is possible and God exspects us to attain this and Christ wants us to come to the place that Paul had came to, Paul said for him to live was Christ .If we come to the place of doing everything through Christ. Then we are blameless and perfect in Spirit , in soul and in body . Christ Blood is more powerful than most recognize . because most do not recognize His power to keep them from sin in thier own lives. This issue , between sin nature and actually sinning and becomeing guilty of hell [ second death ] and what the bible says about these things, will be disagreed upon until we are in eternity , and heaven . Great question ceedub .. God bless you and keep you in peace .. Clint


_________________
Clint Demoret

 2009/5/2 14:29Profile









 Re:

Quote:
This death is not sin itself, it is the results of sin...




Man was not born to die. Death entered because of Adam's disobedience. I agree, this death is not sin itself, but it also not just the RESULT of sin. Death, according to the scripture, is the supernatural judgement from God upon Adam's sin.

We serve a God who is a judge and He judged Adam's disobedience by condemning him to death. This condemnation has passed to all of Adam's posterity, for all die.

That is why that, for those who are in Christ, there is NOW NO CONDEMNATION TO THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST JESUS. Thank God.

Michael

 2009/5/2 15:25
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

Quote:
I agree, this death is not sin itself, but it also not just the RESULT of sin. Death, according to the scripture, is the supernatural judgement from God upon Adam's sin.



I don't know as I see it so much supernatural as the fact that God kept man from the tree of life in the garden. We see it (the tree) briefly in Psalms but not again until Revelation where it says of it that it is for the 'healing of the nations'. I see the judgement of death on mankind as a result of our being removed from Eden and having no access to the tree of life, which is the broad brush of a universal judgement on mankind that we inherit through our first Adam. For God said that, even in Adam's sinful state, that should he eat of the tree of life he would live forever.

Secondly, I agree that the first death, as said above, was passed on to Adam's posterity, but not the second.

 2009/5/2 17:03Profile
SteveHale
Member



Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 191
NSW Australia

 Re: Adam's sin...our guilt?

Behold, this is the only (reason for it that)I have found: God made man upright, but they (men and women)have sought out many devices (for evil). Ecclesiastes 7:29


_________________
Steve

 2009/5/2 17:49Profile









 Re:



So, I guess the Old Testament is of no value in this discussion. Everyone on this thread has ignored what it has to say about the sin nature of mankind.

Sin Nature

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5).

Every human being sins. Sin is often defined as missing the mark. It is a failure to live up to God's requirements.

The "sin offering (sacrifice)" was offered because of mans sin nature. Every human being possesses a sin nature -- a corrupt nature inherited from Adam. Our sin nature separates us from God: "The result of one trespass (by thought or deed) was condemnation for all men" (Romans 5:18).

Everyone has sinned, everyone.

God commanded the Jews to sacrifice animals to cover their sin.[b] Two of these sacrifices were MANDATORY, and were required by God by ALL JEWS at least once a year. If they did not offer these sacrifices once yearly, they were sent outside the camp (everything unclean was located “outside of the camp”[/b]

Sin Sacrifice (offering)—The sacrifice=Fine flour, Bull, Goat, Lamb, Dove or Pigeon.
See Leviticus 4:5-13

Trespass, Guilt Sacrifice—The sacrifice=Ram
See Leviticus 5:14-19; 6:1-7; 7:1-10

The Sin Sacrifice was for unknown sin, or our sin nature

The Trespass Sacrifice was for known sin & guilt.

Christians have two natures at work in their being -- one is the old sin nature, and the other is a new nature controlled by the Spirit. These two natures are constantly at war with each other. Paul explains that, despite his best intentions, he is still influenced by his sin nature: "I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do -- this I keep on doing" (Romans 7:18-19).

While our two natures are constantly in conflict, it is not the sin nature that will ultimately control the Christian. Part of the sanctification process involves dying to the old nature. The Christian will sin, but the Christian will not continue in unrestrained sin: "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you" (Romans 8:9). Sin in the Christian's life will be followed by remorse and repentance.

At Christ's second coming, when the believer's body is glorified, the sin nature will be destroyed once and for all. Until then, we are told to resist the sin nature's temptations.
God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it" (1 Corinthians 10:13).

[b][color=FF0000]Does anyone have a response to my post, based upon SCRIPTURE?[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

 2009/5/2 19:37









 Re:

Quote:
Does anyone have a response to my post, based upon SCRIPTURE?




Honestly, I don't know what to resond to. What is it that you are trying to say, and what does it have to do with the original post?

Michael

 2009/5/2 20:11









 Re: Widely disputed Topic-Romans 5:12-21?



Hello, Mahoney:

In the very first post of ceedub on this thread he questions the validity of the sin nature of man, and then quotes Romans 5:12-21 and refers to that text as a “widely disputed topic”:

This is his first post on this thread:

Quote:
I'm brand new here but this looks like a great place to discuss.[b] I'm curious if there's any others out there who have a problem as I do with the extent that some (even many commentators that I really admire) take the doctrine of original sin to[/b]. By that, I understand that there is a far reaching effect that includes death, the sin nature and imminent condemnation but for the grace of God.[b] But too many passages indicate that God doesn't pass guilt until we ourselves sin.[/b]

[b]I understand and agree with Cov't headship, but not to the degree that we are held guilty for the same crimes committed by the head.[/b] ie: Germans under Hitler were judged with many consequences that their leader brought them under, yet no one would hold them individually guilty for the same crimes.

[b]I'm speaking on Romans 5:12 -21 in the near future and was wondering if there were any thoughts on this widely disputed topic?[/b]



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[b]Widely Disputed Topic?[/b]

Going back 2,000 years in Church history, and not taking into account the apostacy of the past 30 years, there has never been an issue in understanding that all humans have a sin nature---from our mothers womb.

“Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5).

That is the issue.

[b]This is the text that ceedeb quotes as being a "widely disputed topic" (disputed by who, the Gnostics?)[/b]:

Romans 5:12-21
12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13. (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)18. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21. That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.




Sincerely,

Walter
Quote:

Mahoney wrote:
Quote:
Does anyone have a response to my post, based upon SCRIPTURE?




Honestly, I don't know what to resond to. What is it that you are trying to say, and what does it have to do with the original post?

Michael

 2009/5/2 21:12
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

This is interesting. in the previous post I'm (I think) accused of denying the sin nature, though the post that's quoted has me saying I totally agree that we inherited a sin nature though Adam.

And yes, it is a widely disputed topic...

Calvin says that guilt passed from Adam to man, but not neccessarily infants, though the law was there.

Matthew Henry says the guilt of Adam passed to all mankind, even infants, yet he says the law wasn't there till Moses.

MacArthur calls it mind boggling and states that the law was not used to hold people to their sins from Adam to Moses, but it is Adam's guilt that we are born into.

Albert Barnes doesn't believe we inherit Adam's guilt, only death and the sin nature.

John Bunyan states that the law was indeed there from Adam to Moses and we are therefore guilty of our own sins (because without the law there is no sin).

To refer to this as simple and 'gnostic' in nature, denying any disparity in what all commentators refer to as the hardest passage in the NT to exposit, is to not actually understand the question in the first place.

 2009/5/3 0:15Profile





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