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ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

In reading your questions, I sense there must be a situation troubling you that you are asking these questions...right? or wrong?

Right. I'll be preaching on Romans 5:12-21 soon, and I find great dissention between the commentators. :-)

 2009/5/1 21:44Profile
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

How do you make the quotes appear small and centred?

 2009/5/1 21:45Profile









 Re:



Hello ceedub!

[b]Do dead babies & children go to heaven if they have never accepted Christ as Lord? How about newborns?[/b]

The teaching is in 2nd Samuel, Chapter 12 when David’s newborn son dies.

22. And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23. But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast?[b] can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.[/b]

In Israel, one was [b]not[/b] considered to be an adult, to be accountable, until the age of 20, when all men were required to join the army.

All children are covered by God’s grace until they become of age, and are accountable before God and man. With some people, that age of accountability can be 6 years old, and with others it may be 19, and for others it never comes. Woe to those over the age of accountability who have not made a decision for Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior of their lives.

I truly believe that heaven is filled with babies and children, even older children, that have died before the age of maturity (whatever age that is---God knows), before they have made a conscious decision to accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior, and His work on the cross.[b] Yet, they are saved by God’s grace, just as David’s son was saved by God's grace and waiting for him in Abrahams bosom until David would join him there many years later.[/b]

Sincerley,

Walter

Quote:

ceedub wrote:
In reading your questions, I sense there must be a situation troubling you that you are asking these questions...right? or wrong?

Right. I'll be preaching on Romans 5:12-21 soon, and I find great dissention between the commentators. :-)

 2009/5/1 23:10
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

Quote:
Do dead babies & children go to heaven if they have never accepted Christ as Lord? How about newborns?



I hold to the same interpretation myself. But my question remains regarding original sin and its effect on mankind...

Does God impute guilt on Adam's posterity, or just the separation, physical death and sin nature?

I think this is the crux of the original question.

I don't think it's splitting hairs, for it speaks a great deal regarding how God judges mankind.

In MacArthur's commentary, he remarks this question as 'mind boggling' and I have to agree, though I lean towards no imputed guilt, and maintain there is separation, physical death and an inherited sin nature.

I appreciate so many responses.

 2009/5/2 1:09Profile









 Re:




Hello ceedub:

It is very simple. Those who [b]will not[/b] accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior will spend eternity with Satan and his fallen angels in Hell, [b]without the presence of God.

Those that accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior will spend eternity in the presence of God, and will be re-made in the image of the Savior they worship---in the savior that saved them from the wrath to come.[/b]


Jesus Christ had more to say about hell, and what it actually consisted of than anyone else in the Bible. Why, we might ask? [b]Because He created it[/b] for Satan and his fallen angels--a place that fallen man, who would not accept the free gift of salvation by His (Christ's) Work, would also be destined to live for endless eternity:

[b]43. ........it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [/b] 45. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46.[b] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [/b] 47. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out:[b] it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.[/b]

Only by the belief and acceptance in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is [b]humanity[/b] free from the eternity of Hell. Only by belief and acceptance in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are we free to spend eternity with Him in Heaven.

He who knew no sin became sin ---for all those that believe.

Those who believe in the Savior, and the Work that He did are saved, and will spend eternal life with Him in a "New Heaven and a New Earth".

Those who reject Him will spend eternal life [b]without[/b] Him, and will forever be in the presence of Satan and his fallen Angels in Hell.


Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

ceedub wrote:
Quote:
Do dead babies & children go to heaven if they have never accepted Christ as Lord? How about newborns?



I hold to the same interpretation myself. But my question remains regarding original sin and its effect on mankind...

Does God impute guilt on Adam's posterity, or just the separation, physical death and sin nature?

I think this is the crux of the original question.

I don't think it's splitting hairs, for it speaks a great deal regarding how God judges mankind.

In MacArthur's commentary, he remarks this question as 'mind boggling' and I have to agree, though I lean towards no imputed guilt, and maintain there is separation, physical death and an inherited sin nature.

I appreciate so many responses.

 2009/5/2 10:06
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

It is very simple. Those who will not accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior will spend eternity with Satan and his fallen angels in Hell, without the presence of God.

Those that accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior will spend eternity in the presence of God, and will be re-made in the image of the Savior they worship---in the savior that saved them from the wrath to come.

Quote:


I don't know if I'd call it 'simple'. My original question still isn't answered. Calvin and Mathew Henry both believe that guilt is imputed to Adam's posterity. MacArthur believes the same citing that there was no law between Adam and Moses (Romans commentary). Albert Barnes and Stuart don't believe that guilty is imputed but rather the nature or propensity to sin. John Bunyan believes the law was there, but only in the hearts of men (ie Cain's countenance and Romans 1) and therefore were guilty of their own sin, not Adam's.


waltern wrote:



Hello ceedub:

It is very simple. Those who [b]will not[/b] accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior will spend eternity with Satan and his fallen angels in Hell, [b]without the presence of God.

Those that accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior will spend eternity in the presence of God, and will be re-made in the image of the Savior they worship---in the savior that saved them from the wrath to come.[/b]


Jesus Christ had more to say about hell, and what it actually consisted of than anyone else in the Bible. Why, we might ask? [b]Because He created it[/b] for Satan and his fallen angels--a place that fallen man, who would not accept the free gift of salvation by His (Christ's) Work, would also be destined to live for endless eternity:

[b]43. ........it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [/b] 45. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46.[b] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [/b] 47. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out:[b] it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.[/b]

Only by the belief and acceptance in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is [b]humanity[/b] free from the eternity of Hell. Only by belief and acceptance in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are we free to spend eternity with Him in Heaven.

He who knew no sin became sin ---for all those that believe.

Those who believe in the Savior, and the Work that He did are saved, and will spend eternal life with Him in a "New Heaven and a New Earth".

Those who reject Him will spend eternal life [b]without[/b] Him, and will forever be in the presence of Satan and his fallen Angels in Hell.


Sincerely,

Walter
Quote:

ceedub wrote:
Quote:
Do dead babies & children go to heaven if they have never accepted Christ as Lord? How about newborns?



I hold to the same interpretation myself. But my question remains regarding original sin and its effect on mankind...

Does God impute guilt on Adam's posterity, or just the separation, physical death and sin nature?

I think this is the crux of the original question.

I don't think it's splitting hairs, for it speaks a great deal regarding how God judges mankind.

In MacArthur's commentary, he remarks this question as 'mind boggling' and I have to agree, though I lean towards no imputed guilt, and maintain there is separation, physical death and an inherited sin nature.

I appreciate so many responses.


Quote:
It is very simple. Those who will not accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior will spend eternity with Satan and his fallen angels in Hell, without the presence of God.

 2009/5/2 10:45Profile
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

Sorry Waltern, I'm making a mess with the quote function! Thanks for your patience.

 2009/5/2 10:53Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Albert Barnes and Stuart don't believe that guilty is imputed but rather the nature or propensity to sin. John Bunyan believes the law was there, but only in the hearts of men (ie Cain's countenance and Romans 1) and therefore were guilty of their own sin, not Adam's.



I agree with these guys.

Adam could have eaten from the tree of Life and lived eternally in that innocent state but "he did it his way."

Cain did it his way.

Job, who was chronologically the first author of our Bibles, did it GOD's way. His friends had a knowledge of the Holy from "somewhere".

"Doing it our way" - no matter what it is - good or evil is "sin"

Rejecting GOD in the flesh's sacrifice of Himself for our independent-prideful-selves is "doing it our way".

Romans 1 says that HE does make Himself known, but men would rather do it "their way".


We battle "doing it our way" everyday - even as "Saints". We walk through or in "intellect" or "emotion" more than we walk in His Spirit - wholly dependent on HIM. That's [i]still[/i] the taking from the 'Tree of knowledge' rather than the Tree or Word of Life, which is only from HIM. We run on that "autonomous" nature more than we realize.


It really started with Satan, with his "independent-prideful-self" wanting to do the life GOD gave him, "his way."


Edit to add: Remembering to mention the gang in Heb 11 that were before Christ.

 2009/5/2 11:19
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3697
Ca.

 Re:

We cannot get around scripture. Through one man sin entered the world and all die. Through One Man sin is crucified on the Cross as we were with Christ, leaving us to the Father no longer in Adam but in Christ.

Romans 5:1-21 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Even in our own sin, Adam's sin prevails, for we all die. Only in Christ can any life. It is no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us.

Galatians 2:18-21 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

in Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2009/5/2 11:59Profile









 Re:



The Christian believer that relies on the New Testament, the “New Blood Covenant” and spends no time in the Old Testament, the “Old Blood Covenant” is like a man with two legs, who chooses to only walk on one leg. He thinks he is walking with his one leg, but in reality he is only hopping around, and has impaired his walk by not using his other leg, that is useless.

In the Garden of Eden, at the beginning, after Adam & Eve sinned, God,[b] before banishing them from Eden and from His presence, God made garments of skin for them[/b] (Gen 3:21)

Where did he get these from? Can an animal live without his skin? Since we know that sin brought death, it is not fair to reason that animals were killed so that the shame of Adam and Eve could be covered? God also expelled them from the garden. At this time God told Adam and Eve the consequences of their actions, one of which was physical death. To the serpent, who tempted them, he said, "'And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and hers, he will crush your head and you will strike his heel.'" (Genesis 3:15)

Here God promises that the power of Satan will be crushed through the seed of the woman. How will this happen? Has God given us further instructions concerning this? Yes!

In the next chapter we read of Cain and Abel, when Cain and Abel brought sacrifices to God. [b]"In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. But Abel brought fat portions from some of the first-born of his flock. The Lord looked with favour on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favour. So Cain was angry and his face was downcast. Then the Lord said to Cain, "'Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; It desires to have you, but you must master it.'" (Genesis 4:3-7)[/b]

[b]Why did God accept Abel's offering but not Cain's? In God's reply to Cain we find the answer to this question. God had obviously given clear instructions to Adam & Eve who gave those same instructions to Cain and Abel concerning what type of sacrifice needed to be offered. Abel brought the correct sacrifice which was an animal from the first-born of the flock-a blood sacrifice. Cain did not bring the correct sacrifice. Cain brought a sacrifice of his own choosing instead of the sacrifice that pleased God.[/b] In the Bible it says, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death." (Proverbs 14:12) "By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead." (Hebrews 11:4) A sober warning is also given to those who take the way of Cain. Because of his pride, he rejected God's authority and offered an unacceptable sacrifice.

If we look close,[b] the next blood sacrifices that are mentioned are those of Noah,[/b] who is described as follows in (Genesis 4:8 –9)

1) Noah found[b] grace[/b] in the eyes of the Lord; 2) Noah was considered a[b] just man and perfect in his generations; 3) Noah walked with God[/b]

When the animals entered the ark, the clean animals (those used for sacrifice) entered the ark 7 X 7, while all of the other animals entered 2 X 2.

[b]The first thing that Noah did upon leaving the ark was to sacrifice to the Lord:[/b]

Genesis 8:20-22 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Mankind (we are all in Adam, and have inherited his sin nature)has sinned against God and brought him shame by disobeying His commands. This sin must be paid for to satisfy God's righteous anger and uphold his justice. God says, [b]"The soul who sins is the one who will die." (Ezekiel 18:4b) and "The wages of sin is death . . . ." (Romans 6:23)[/b]

Again, the Old Testament is clear that before the law was established on Mount Sinai, God required a specific type of animal sacrifice to cover the sins of those who believeded on Him.

[b]In the Book of Job, one of the oldest books in the Bible, we read that as the family priest, he was the one who sacrificed animals for the sins of his children[/b]

(Job 1-5) 1. There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. 2. And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters. 3. His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east. 4. And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. 5. And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that[b] Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.[/b]

[b][color=660000]The Bible is clear, regardless of what Barnes or any other person has to say. There are only two options for human beings (for God’s creation)-- One is Heaven, in the eternal presence of God, and one is hell, in the eternal absence of God. The only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, to those who BELIEVE IN/ON HIM[/color][/b]

No other options exist, other than Heaven or hell! We are, each of us, on our way to one or the other!

Sincerley,

Walter

Quote:

ceedub wrote:
It is very simple. Those who will not accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior will spend eternity with Satan and his fallen angels in Hell, without the presence of God.

Deleted

quote]

I don't know if I'd call it 'simple'. My original question still isn't answered. Calvin and Mathew Henry both believe that guilt is imputed to Adam's posterity. MacArthur believes the same citing that there was no law between Adam and Moses (Romans commentary). Albert Barnes and Stuart don't believe that guilty is imputed but rather the nature or propensity to sin. John Bunyan believes the law was there, but only in the hearts of men (ie Cain's countenance and Romans 1) and therefore were guilty of their own sin, not Adam's.


waltern wrote:
deleted


quote]

 2009/5/2 12:17





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