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Robert_79
Member



Joined: 2007/3/13
Posts: 23
Dallas

 Social Security, Submission, Sin

Dear Brethren,

I am having a serious discussion with a brother in which I could use some advice, prayer, and resources. I will try and describe this situation as succinctly as possible.

There is a brother in our fellowship who has born good fruit over the years, sought the Lord, and been a good influence on many, etc... Over the last few years, he has been thinking much about the verse: "You are bought with a price, do not be the servants of men." God has taught him some true things in regard to the fear of man, the love of money, and some other issues.

He has gotten some very strange convictions about some things lately, however. He feels like the social security number is the mark of the beast or something very close, so he will not get a SSN. Because of this, he can't get a driver's license. He also refuses to pay taxes on the grounds that the "law" (the constitution) doesn't require it.

He backs up these views with an unusual interpretation of Romans 13, by which he claims that we only have to submit to and obey the government if they are acting as the ministers of God to us for good. He says that it is only in this case that they are a true government and that in America, "they" are appropriating more power than the government actually has, and that the real law (as opposed to those usurping authority) gives him many rights, which he refuses to surrender and feels God has called him to fight for.

I, along with some other brothers, have spent many hours discussing these things with him, but have not been able to come to agreement.

My requests are these:

1. Please pray. This is rapidly becoming a very serious situation, as he could go to jail for these offenses.

2. Does anyone know of any good writing or teaching on this subject? I've never run across anyone who holds this view before, and was just wondering if maybe someone else had and had some insight.

Thank you all, and may the Lord bless you.

 2009/4/12 3:07Profile









 Re: Social Security, Submission, Sin

Quote:
There is a brother in our fellowship who has born good fruit over the years, sought the Lord, and been a good influence on many, etc... Over the last few years, he has been thinking much about the verse: "You are bought with a price, do not be the servants of men." God has taught him some true things in regard to the fear of man, the love of money, and some other issues.



There are large groups of people taking on that conviction. I know from listening to them on radio sometimes that there isn't much you can say to change their convictions.

The only thing you can do is ask him if he's Truly Sure that he's ready to possibly go to jail for these convictions of his. If he says yes - what more can you say?

Sometimes just talking Jesus with someone who you say was/is a good brother is enough.

Everyone has convictions of one sort of another. Other than telling him the story about the tax money that Jesus provided in the mouth of that fish is about all you can do.
Anything more will put a tension between you that may not be worth it. He'll need a friend someday - just as actually we all will.

A man's convictions are not worth spitting over.
I'd just continue to love him as you have. We'll all need that love from each other one day, regardless of whether we're good law abiding citizens or not.

LORD Bless you Robert.

 2009/4/12 4:10









 Re: Social Security, Submission, Sin

Quote:
He has gotten some very strange convictions about some things lately, however. He feels like the social security number is the mark of the beast or something very close, so he will not get a SSN. Because of this, he can't get a driver's license. He also refuses to pay taxes on the grounds that the "law" (the constitution) doesn't require it.

He sounds rebellious even toward the LORD to be at peace with all men, but not to the place of compromise of course. Romans 12:18 "If it be possible, as much as in you lieth, be at peace with all men."

Tell him the story about Jesus and Peter having to pay their taxes so not to offend worldly governments. Matthew 17:25 26 27 "Jesus asked him, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the world collect fees or taxes? Is it from their family members or from other people?" "From other people," Peter answered. Jesus said to him, "Then the family members are exempt." "Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee."

Jesus and Peter paid their taxes so they wouldn't offend the government. It wouldn't look good for the feds to have barged through the crowd to be called in by the IRS on tax evasion. He knew that God set up the Roman government. He came not to fight the Romans, He came to set men free from the bondage of sin and death. He didn't come to stand in the street with a placard "Stop Abortion", "Death to Sodomites". That is the worlds solution, and He certainly was not of the Earth, but rather, "the LORD from heaven".

For the record, the name of Jesus was put into the system of that day, He paid His taxes. They would have wanted His name, His ancestral birthplace, etc.. No different then today. If Jesus was concerned about not offending the government regarding taxes, then we should take heed ourselves.

Jesus said to go to the sea to get this money. Jesus likens the sea as the world. Jesus likens fish unto men. Peter had to toil to get the fish. We are to go into the world, work, and obtain the money to pay the IRS.

We are not here to draw attention unto ourselves. We are here to point out that Jesus is the star attraction, not by what this man is doing.

If you can't reason with him, I would leave him alone and let God deal with him, praying for him. If what he says is from God, Good! But if it is not, you'll see the fruit of that as well.

 2009/4/12 9:28
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: Social Security, Submission, Sin

Hi Robert_79,


I will try to remember to pray for you and this situation.


I wanted to mention something also in regards to the passage in Romans 13 and how it appears your friend is responding if I could?


I think that there are many ways that we can observe how Goverments and their representatives function for our general good. Maybe it would be possible to share together with him some of them that you and he could think of together?


Also, it seems to me that Paul includes every Goverment and power in Romans 13:1-2, without exception. I think of Daniel in Babylon also.




Wish you well,

Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/4/12 13:45Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi again everyone,


About reflecting on our Goverments functioning for our good, I think that we can be grateful to God for a goverment that is willing to send warhips and other of its resources to see that one of it's citizens is set free.


Wish you all well,

Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2009/4/12 14:03Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7463
Mississippi

 Re:

Quote:
Also, it seems to me that Paul includes every Government and power in Romans 13:1-2, without exception.



And when Paul wrote this Nero was the emperor of Rome....

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2009/4/12 23:37Profile









 Re:

What makes it difficult to talk to these folks is that they will rattle off "law" to you and prove to you that all of these things are "unconstitutional" and the SS # is being misused from it's initial purpose, etc. etc. and they'll show you where the law shows they're right - but the only way to get any of them to change their mind is to show them that we have NO "rights" under GOD and you can only show them that through the Bible.
They'll quote the constitution and other things to you as if it IS the Bible.
There are no Inalienable "rights" given by GOD - to quote the "bill of rights" - GOD gives and GOD takes away. If you read the "bill of rights" it's not really "Biblical" - but these guys believe it is.
That's why unless this person sees things Biblically and gets away from reading what they 'think' are "their rights" there's little chance of persuading him.
I've listened to them rattle off one bill number after another and SS laws, IRS laws, etc. etc. and they're all so accurate in what they're saying but not Biblically.

He has to determine that if he gets arrested - it should be for being "a Christian Only" and not for "the bill of rights" or any other provisions in the SS or IRS flaws they think they've found.

We should only be arrested for being Christians - if that day comes and we will pray for this brother that he'll see that. That he'll see that GOD does not give "rights" for freedom, or the pursuit of happiness or property ownership nor gun ownership etc. etc. - that was a humanist piece of paper. Nice while it lasts but humanist just the same and not worth leaving your family for when they take you away to prison for trying to protect your "rights".

That's why I posted what I did up top. Whoever he's following has all the laws and bill of rights, etc., down to a science and it's very difficult to show them that it's not from GOD. That all the laws that they feel back them - were not written by GOD but by humanists.

They have their own pastor's teaching them on the internet about Romans 13 as well, but not as any of us would teach it. All this stuff is on-line. It takes a lot of research to find where they get all their beliefs from, but basically they are using our founding father's writings and those originally used when the SS and IRS was started... nevertheless - they'll go to jail - like Erwin Schiff did. Just read Ron Paul's Forum someday to see how far folks think they should go to defend what they say is the law of this land from the "founding fathers" and not THE Father.
Sad, sad subject Robert. Best to love your friend back to the Bible alone.
If we live to see antiChrist - none of this will matter anyway - we'll all be criminals - so best to love him back to the Word of God alone. I know Romans 13 doesn't work on these guys - they'll just keep quoting "law #'s" to you and showing you where they are 'not' breaking any laws but are "upholding" them.

I wouldn't 'rat' on a Brother neither. I feel that needs to be said as well - just because someone showed him a bunch of 'patriot / founding fathers' material, etc.

Good time for all to read some of Richard Wurmbrand's books - of how some 'christians' would turn-in Christians over to the state.
Jesus said that practice would happen world-wide one day and I wonder how close some of us have come to that already.

Something to pray about. When do we do such a thing - and should we draw that line in the sand on that decision now?


 2009/4/13 2:05
Robert_79
Member



Joined: 2007/3/13
Posts: 23
Dallas

 Re:

Thank you all for your responses and prayers. Truly, it is a work that God must do in our brother's heart. I know that He is able! As the Lord brings it to mind, I would appreciate your continued prayers and insight. May the Lord bless you.

 2009/4/13 9:49Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
They'll quote the constitution and other things to you as if it IS the Bible. There are no Inalienable "rights" given by GOD - to quote the "bill of rights" - GOD gives and GOD takes away. If you read the "bill of rights" it's not really "Biblical" - but these guys believe it is.



Hi Brother,

The Constitution of the U.S. is primarily considering "rights" as they exist between fellow men. In that sense, I would say that every man does indeed have "rights" in the context of [b]man-to-man[/b] relations. The Lord provided a Decalogue, half of which governs relations with our fellow man. I think to preserve public justice and tranquility, the Lord established that men have the "right" to not be defrauded, killed, lied to, etc. by their fellow man, and it is the role of government to preserve this justice.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/4/13 13:59Profile









 Re:

Indeed we are grateful for these privileges we've had written into our Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

I probably didn't word my thoughts as well as I would have liked to.

"The LORD giveth and the LORD taketh away" - it seems that these that they call "rights" are being stripped away, little by little, but if we find ourselves going too far in demanding that they stay as they were originally written and carried forth "for our own period of time here", we may find ourselves fighting GOD.


As they say - we get the type government that we morally deserve? Or are we just in those "last days"?

 2009/4/13 19:02





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