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KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 People know they are sinners?

I have heard a trend of preaching that we don't need to clamp down too hard in our preaching, for people already know they are sinners. And instead of spending much time on identifying sin and such, we need to spend more time preaching about the new birth and the blessings of the regenerate life. Is there any actual basis to this statement, that sinners know they are sinners?

Discuss :)


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Jimmy H

 2004/8/17 20:42Profile
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 Re: People know they are sinners?

Quote:
Is there any actual basis to this statement, that sinners know they are sinners?


I really dont think so, they are sinners in most cases but they are vieled as it were and captive to the devils devices, unawares of there dangerous situation of being condemned under sin.
I think in this sermon by William P. Nicholson he really brings out this old time way of preaching to convince people they need God and Jesus:

[b][url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=3034]The Sin That Has No Forgiveness[/url][/b] - [i]Description: Nicholson states that this sermon is the most grave and serious sermon he ever could preach. This sin that cannot be forgiven is something that has been confused and been a mystery and stumbling block to many. God willing this sermon will lead you into the truth of this passage.[/i]

We need more preaching like this in our day.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/8/17 23:06Profile
Forevidence
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Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
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 Re:

I saw the question. Check this:

"Pro 20:6 Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness..."

Also

" Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."


These are amazing statements! First that man does not by nature declare that He is a sinner in the biblical sense because by nature we are like Adam, who sewed some fig leaves to hid his nakedness after he had sinned. Most people I witness to think they are good people and therefore are at enmity with good because they are trying to be found in their righteousness rather then Christ's, "Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith..." I was like this too, I used to be a blaspehming athiest and was convinced that if there was a God that He was like " Oh he is good person." That is a loud of rubbish! This preaching that doesn't talk about sin, and convince men they are sinners is rubbish! Away with all that trash! If the apostle Paul needed to be convinced of his sin as a moral Pharisee, how much more do this culture who is oozing and spewing forth rebellion every day, how much more do we need to be convinced?

Check out on this site some sermons by Ray Comfort! He really puts the smack down on this type of whack preaching. He is also good for basics on the necessity to show men their exceedingly sinfulness of sin!


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Giancarlo

 2004/8/18 2:03Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Indeed. Forevidence picks the verses that stick out to me the most from Scripture. The evangelism books I've read seem to all agree in this area as well, that we must preach the law in order to show men their sin. I've never heard anybody quote any verses that suggest something else. But, the fact I've heard several preachers say nearly the same thing, that sinners know they are such, shows that somebody out there is probably quoting somebody (whom I guess is rather popular). One of my professors at school said it over lunch one day, and I challenged him to provide a Scripture that teaches such. He wasn't able to. I heard my pastor say it this last Sunday as well.


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Jimmy H

 2004/8/18 6:29Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Quote:
we must preach the law in order to show men their sin.


Hi Jimmy
I have heard this from some of the people I respect most but I struggle with the biblical basis for such a statement. I am currently reviewing "Firm Foundations" (Trevor McIlwain, New Tribes Mission - ISBN 1-890040-00-2) for a UK based Missionary Association. I have been impressed with the first few chapters but have now arrived at the chapters which involve this thesis. My main problem with the thesis is that I do not see it in the Acts. Acts 17 is a key passage to my mind where in the midst of a heathen audience Paul preached the resurrection as a guarantee that all men must face judgement. He says that God had overlooked men's ignorance in idolatry but now commanded all men everywhere to repent.

The question to my mind is when is 'now'? Is this the moment when the gospel touches a life (when the commandment comes), or did the 'now' begin from the moment of Christ's death? There is no doubt in my mind that 'repent' means there must be some consciousness of 'sin', but is the law the only way by which sin is recognised in personal experience? Some may say but we see it in the epistles. But the epistles were written to people to whom God's command 'had come' with its consequent sin-consciousness.

This site has a special interest in classical revival and its inevitable sin consciousness, but do revivals always begin with the education of the sinner or does an awareness of the presence of God bring the biblically uneducated to sin consciousness?

As a matter of personal opinion I don't think that sinners do know that they are sinners without being told, anymore that corpses know they are dead. I think this is part of what Paul is saying in Romans 7; I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. Earlier he says that he would not have recognised 'lust' unless the law had said it. But he grew up with that fact; there was probably never a time when he did not know it. Clearly, at some point in his experience that commandment came and then the trouble started.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/8/18 7:08Profile
Clutch
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Joined: 2003/11/10
Posts: 202
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 Re:

Hi Ron,
16 ¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.Romans 1

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10

But the subject is not faith but sin conciousness. :-P

19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

I don't find the word concience in my AV, perhaps YOU have it in one of those OTHER translations that you like. 8-)

I feel strongly both ways. That man is born with a God conciousness. And that he needs to be instructed through the Word of God to be able to reconcile with Him.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.II Timothy 2

I've missed you my brother. I'm looking forward to what you'll do next with Abe.

Clutch


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Howard McNeill

 2004/8/18 7:40Profile
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 Re: People know they are sinners?

Quote:
I have heard a trend of preaching that we don't need to clamp down too hard in our preaching, for people already know they are sinners. And instead of spending much time on identifying sin and such, we need to spend more time preaching about the new birth and the blessings of the regenerate life. Is there any actual basis to this statement, that sinners know they are sinners?



Let's not generalise too much. It really [b][i]depends[/i][/b] on the particular background of the audience. Jesus himself was stern at times ([i]"Woe to you"[/i]) and compassionate in other occasions ([i]"I come to heal"[/i]). He preached to the Samaritan woman first the blessings of the living water, and then he subtly confronted her about her sins. Paul preached on the [i]"Unknown God"[/i] to the Greeks in Athens, but Stephen went through the whole history of Israel when he spoke to the Jews in Jerusalem.

[b][i]Follow the Spirit's leading, not a particular gospel-preaching formula.[/i][/b] People meet God in different ways, and it is impossible for those who have a genuine encounter with God to not be conscious of their sins.


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Sam

 2004/8/18 8:03Profile
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Joined: 2004/3/24
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 Re: People know they are sinners?


i watched a program recently about America's prison system in which there was a segment where psychologist interviewed a cross segment of rapist, murderers, stick up thieves, and burgulars, and they asked them if they considered themselves "good" of "bad" people, and to a man everyone of them said that they didn't think of themselves as bad folk ...

i think that most folk today, and i have to say within American society, because it's the only one i know, don't think that their bad, or sinners ... If they did they wouldn't do what they do ...

i also just got finished listening to; "A Nation of Victims: The Decay of the American Character" ...

http://www.booktv.org/booknotes/index.asp?schedid=297&segid=4809

... on Book TV.Org ... You can watch/listen to it, if you click on "WATCH", and have RealPlayer ... As a Christian you'll find it pretty appaling, and gain some real understanding why it's so difficult for folk, particularly Americans, to truly accept, and experience the forgiveness of Christ, because even if they've done wrong, they don't take personal blame, it's just not their fault ... And the devil certainly didn't make them do it in their own minds because most don't even believe in the devil ... So it's their parents, or society's fault, never their own ... satan is the master deciever!

 2004/8/18 11:07Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Is there any actual basis to this statement, that sinners know they are sinners?



I think I would answer that question by asking, "Have they been informed?" That has already been answered in a previous post that dealt with man being without excuse. All men have the light of creation and conscience. The conscience is God unaffliated agent within us that either approves or condemns our behavior. God makes man conscious of their condition in many ways- even apart from preaching. Jonathan Edwards once compelled unrepentant sinners to consider right now how many different means that Christ is using to try to bring them to repentance.

People have been made known they are sinners, but have hardened themselves to that reality and there for need to have their conscience re-awakened. God can do it sovereignly (as He did in the Hebrides revival)- but He generally uses a means such as preaching. The greater the hardness- the stronger the means needed to deal with it. This means increased unction and more potent message. A person near unto repentance may not need such. As one post already affirmed, we must have the leading of the Holy Ghost.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/8/18 12:11Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Interesting thoughts.

Another verse I thought I'd toss out there for this discussion is:

Proverbs 12:15 The way of the fool is right in his own eyes...

Though there are surely some 'reasonable' sinners out there that show some prudence, all those who are not living the life of faith technically are fools. And their way is right in their own eyes, and it is a way that leads to hell.

Quote:

Let's not generalise too much. It really depends on the particular background of the audience. Jesus himself was stern at times ("Woe to you") and compassionate in other occasions ("I come to heal").



Indeed.

Quote:

Follow the Spirit's leading, not a particular gospel-preaching formula. People meet God in different ways, and it is impossible for those who have a genuine encounter with God to not be conscious of their sins.



Amen.

Quote:

i think that most folk today, and i have to say within American society, because it's the only one i know, don't think that their bad, or sinners ... If they did they wouldn't do what they do ...



With out a doubt. Most Americans think they are pretty good people. More than that, most think they are Christian! Most would admit to some sort of faults, but, would most likely relegate these as simple "mistakes." Perhaps those who are caught up in the more taboo/socially unacceptable sins might admit they are in sin, but... as the one brother said, it will depend person from person.

Quote:

All men have the light of creation and conscience



Indeed, but as Romans 1 also points out, these men "surpress the truth in unrighteousness." Or in otherwords, when their conscience starts to bother them, they just "shrug it off."


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Jimmy H

 2004/8/18 13:07Profile





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