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Earendel
Member



Joined: 2009/3/17
Posts: 308
Central Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

PaulWest wrote:
Quote:
Only those that are truly born of Him can truly be in Love with Him. Believe it or not, it is a romantic love.


This is error. I am not romantically in love with God; the very thought of this opens one up to grave error, as romanticism is the chamberfellow of eros. The love of God and our relationship to God by the blood of Christ hasn't the slightest inkling of "romance". God's is a love that is nothing short of celestial, heavenly, an agape love that is transcendental of your understanding and of mine. Any explanation less than this is earthbound, and an attept to define the union between God and his saints by virtue of earthly, visceral, and hence, limited knowledge...from which you've arrived at your "romantic" love.

I would halt this error now, before it continues and blossums into something that will embarrass you at a latter date.



I am making reference to the spiritual and not the physical. How is it that you do not see this?

Well, I am going to correct you on this. This has nothing at all to do with "chamberfellow of eros." as you suggest.

Have you ever been filled with the Holy Spirit? Have you ever watched someone worship God when the Holy Spirit is upon them?

What do you think you are going to be doing when you go to heaven, play checkers? No, we won't be playing checkers, we will be worshipping before the Throne of God...(it's a spiritual thing, not really understood by the carnal mind)

What is worship, if it not romantic love?

When you sing hymns of worship in Church, what are you doing?

The scripture is full of reference of people worshipping God "romantically."

let's do this with scripture shall we?

As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so my soul panteth after thee, O God
Psalm 42:1

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mark 12:30

By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. Hebrews 11:21

Read the book of Psalms to see how David worshipped God (Romantically in his soul)

I refuse to debate this; love God the way that you will. But, I will love Him in my heart and in my spirit, in the Spirit, above any earthly love as is understood by the natural carnal man...because I am born of Him who is from above.







_________________
David

 2009/3/24 15:39Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Earendel wrote:
Quote:

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:



Nothing of walking as HE did can be understood until we die to "I, me, mine."



Yes and no to this.

WE have to seek which means "I" have to seek. Not for the purpose of vain glory, but so that "I" may love God...love Him. Only those that are truly born of Him can truly be in Love with Him. Believe it or not, it is a romantic love. Oh to be like Him...my soul thirsts.




WHAT has blinded the Church from the plain and simple fact that[b] "Jesus came 'also' to be our Only Example" of how to [u]inter-relate with GOD[/u][/b]???

What has blinded us from this Plain TRUTH?


We are to be "as HE was in this world."


I don't see that in this church.

I see folks kicking back watching sports, TV, doing their OWN things.

And consistently speaking "I" - "ME" - "Myself".


It's getting nauseating.


Even most talk about REVIVAL centers around what SELF WANTS HIM to DO - when HE did it ALL 2000 years ago - but because we've been SO Focused on Self - we haven't "walked IN HIM" - but have done our "own thing" for all of our saved lives and wonder "when will GOD show up and do A 'NEW' THING."

GOD FORGIVE US!

All of these "desires" are for SELF.

Even with some - "the desire to be Holy is for SELF / Pride."

"The Release in The Spirit" by Watchman Nee is about what some call "dying to SELF."

MY GOD, when will we ever learn that Jesus was dead to self ???

That Jesus set the Example of being "others minded ONLY" = Totally Self-Sacrificial - His Source = looking up to Father through Spirit to ENABLE IN "ALL" things.

HE displayed what "Love FOR GOD" IS - our Love is SELF centered - sorry!

"romantic" is right - in that romantic love looks for "a return" for IT[b]SELF[/b].




To be others-minded-always is not seen anymore because we are too busy preaching that "Jesus did it all FOR ME - NOW I DON'T HAVE TO BE LIKE HIM - HE DOES OR DID IT ALL."


GOD HAVE MERCY - PLEASE!


We will not see anything but purging in the days to come, unless we see this EXAMPLE OF CHRIST'S "SELF-LESS" LIFE displayed so humbly for us while HE took on our human form.
HE was/is GOD - yet HE took our form to "show us the Way" to LOVE GOD and others FULLY.

He said, to Love others, 'as' you love yourselves ... and also through Paul said ... "no man hateth his own flesh" --- which means - we do not need to be "taught" how to "love ourselves" because EVERY HUMAN IS BORN LOVING "SELF" --- EVERY SINGLE ONE.

He just asked that we love others "as" we love ourselves.

The problem has never been that we Don't Love ourselves - The Problem has been that we Love Ourselves Too Much.

Jesus was "others minded Always"... THAT is The Heart of The Father/Son/Spirit.


Until we get this "self" out of the way - we should not even speak of [b]HIS LOVE[/b] and should steer clear of songs such as - Oh, to be Like THEE ...

[i]Oh! to be like Thee, blessed Redeemer,
This is my constant longing and prayer;
Gladly I’ll forfeit all of earth’s treasures,
Jesus, Thy perfect likeness to wear.

Refrain:

Oh! to be like Thee, oh! to be like Thee,
Blessed Redeemer, pure as Thou art;
Come in Thy sweetness, come in Thy fullness;
Stamp Thine own image deep on my heart.

Oh! to be like Thee, full of compassion,
Loving, forgiving, tender and kind,
Helping the helpless, cheering the fainting,
Seeking the wand’ring sinner to find.

Oh! to be like Thee, lowly in spirit,
Holy and harmless, patient and brave;
Meekly enduring cruel reproaches,
Willing to suffer, others to save.

Oh! to be like Thee, Lord, I am coming,
Now to receive th’ anointing divine;
All that I am and have I am bringing,
Lord, from this moment all shall be Thine.

Oh! to be like Thee, while I am pleading,
Pour out Thy Spirit, fill with Thy love,
Make me a temple meet for Thy dwelling,
Fit me for life and Heaven above. [/i]



We don't even understand THE 'SELF'-LESS EXAMPLE that HE SET for [b]"us".[/b]
We sing songs like this one above with "self" focus again and again and not - TO YOUR GLORY - ALWAYS AND ONLY - NO MATTER THE COST TO SELF.


GOD forgive us. Show us what YOU meant by Loving YOU with all of hearts, minds, souls, and Strength, as The Son did - as our Only Example, Amen

 2009/3/24 17:02
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
How is it that you do not see this?


I do not see it because I am looking at your own words, verbatim.
Quote:
What do you think you are going to be doing when you go to heaven, play checkers? No, we won't be playing checkers

Well, I am going to correct you on this.



You seem awfully defensive and flippant. Checkers? We are talking about romantic love versus agape here, in your own words, so why the sudden slippery slope? The love of God is not romantic - not in the conventional sense of romance, anyhow. The scriptures you've provided have absolutely no allusion toward a "romantic love" between the believer and God. They were written in the idiom of Hebraic poetry, which is full of allegory and metaphorics. It is meant to convey the ecstasy of God's love in terms that surpass human understanding. Jesus is the Bridegroom in context to covenant, which is what marriage is, but it is not a romantic marriage in a conventional sense, as understood by the sons and daughters of this world; there is no temporary honeymoon and there are no conjugal passions, not even in the spiritual realm. All of these images, incidentally, are conjured up at the word "romance"; which is certainly the chamberfellow of eros.

Now, if you mean "spiritual romance" (as you've alluded to David romantically in his soul), I will give you the benefit of the doubt, allegorically. But this was not the impression I got from your initial post.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2009/3/24 18:44Profile
Earendel
Member



Joined: 2009/3/17
Posts: 308
Central Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

PaulWest wrote:
Quote:
How is it that you do not see this?

Now, if you mean "spiritual romance" (as you've alluded to David romantically in his soul), I will give you the benefit of the doubt



*Sigh*...yeah, that's it. God knows my heart. Perhaps I could have chosen my words better for your benefit...let's change it to spiritual intimacy, which is what was intended.

Nothing carnal was intended I assure you; I apologize for offending you with my post. ...This is really too sad.


_________________
David

 2009/3/24 19:07Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Friend, God knows all our hearts. You're quite new, and it's just that we've had some very dangerous episodes in the past here in the forums that all started with this same topic of "romanticism" in terms of worshipping God. I will not go into the specifics obviously, as they were absolutely revolting and blasphemous.

The fact of not really knowing who you are and then seeing the infamous "romantic love" red flag coming up, I had to crash-test your intentions. Please feel free to continue sharing and expressing the love of God as it is shed abroad in your heart, for this is truly a wonderful thing and He alone is worthy.

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2009/3/24 19:17Profile
Earendel
Member



Joined: 2009/3/17
Posts: 308
Central Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

PaulWest wrote:
Friend, God knows all our hearts. You're quite new, and it's just that we've had some very dangerous episodes in the past here in the forums that all started with this same topic of "romanticism" in terms of worshipping God. I will not go into the specifics obviously, as they were absolutely revolting and blasphemous.

The fact of not really knowing who you are and then seeing the infamous "romantic love" red flag coming up, I had to crash-test your intentions. Please feel free to continue sharing and expressing the love of God as it is shed abroad in your heart, for this is truly a wonderful thing and He alone is worthy.

Brother Paul



Thanks, I understand your position with what you posted. :-)

I see you have an interesting hobby...How long have you been writing?

http://www.youtube.com/user/Jalapablo

Jesu Juva - Soli Dio Gloria

Ludwig van Beethoven was a south paw musician as well. :-)



_________________
David

 2009/3/24 20:22Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
see you have an interesting hobby...How long have you been writing?


Well about 20 years, more or less. It keeps me occupied, and I can bless God through whatever little talent He has given me in this medium. I see you are familiar with JS Bach's inscriptions of J.J. and S.D.G. Impressive. I also compose my pieces for the sole glory of God - even if I dedicate them to people I know, they are ultimately God's, constructed and intended for His glory alone.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2009/3/24 20:45Profile
Earendel
Member



Joined: 2009/3/17
Posts: 308
Central Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

PaulWest wrote:
Quote:
see you have an interesting hobby...How long have you been writing?


Well about 20 years, more or less. It keeps me occupied, and I can bless God through whatever little talent He has given me in this medium. I see you are familiar with JS Bach's inscriptions of J.J. and S.D.G. Impressive. I also compose my pieces for the sole glory of God - even if I dedicate them to people I know, they are ultimately God's, constructed and intended for His glory alone.



{JJ} With what ever God has called me to, Jesus help me. With what ever I set my hand to accomplish in the name of the Lord - To God alone be the Glory {SDG}

He is our destiny.


_________________
David

 2009/3/24 21:47Profile
wayneman
Member



Joined: 2009/1/24
Posts: 454
Michigan

 Re:

freecd,

Thanks for the timely post. I've been studying Romans 5-8 intensely for a couple weeks now. I had a good understanding of the law of sin and death and the futility of willpower, but Nee's exposition of the law of the Spirit was so illuminating I read it twice. The balloon illustration was interesting. A helium ballon does not rise in defiance of the law of gravity but because of it. The atmospheric pressure around it, caused by gravity, pushes it upward, away from earth. If we live by the Law of the Spirit, the pressure exerted on us by the world, the flesh and the devil only pushes us upward, closer to the Lord.


_________________
Wayne Kraus

 2009/3/24 22:45Profile
wayneman
Member



Joined: 2009/1/24
Posts: 454
Michigan

 Re:

PaulWest,

I, too, am uncomfortable with the concept of eros-as-allegory-for-agape. But even Nee, for whom I have enormous respect, taught that the Song of Solomon is a spiritual allegory.

" 8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills. 9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewinge himself through the lattice. 10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. 11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; 12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land; 13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away."

Stunningly beautiful poetry, but, to me, the notion that it is an allegory of Christ and the church repels the mind. It reminds me of one of Barth's comments in Romerbrief (from memory): "Any worship which forgets the infinite transcendence, holiness and wholly Otherness of God in favor of the 'intimacy' of mysticism, or the romantics, or the disciples of Zinzendorf, is a worship which ends with the no-god of this world." This seems appropriately severe. After all, the image of the Risen Christ, as He is revealed in Revelation 1-3, leaping like a hart, skipping on the hills and peering playfully through the lattice at his lover is too painful to contemplate. Spiritual allegory? No, it can't be.


_________________
Wayne Kraus

 2009/3/24 23:13Profile





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